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Old 12-20-2004, 04:52 AM   #166
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
There is no motivation or reason behind a random event therefore by presenting it as a question of why it creates a question that cannot be answered satisfactorally without a creator.
Now you're getting it!

So how do you know it's a random event- isn't it fair enough for me to accept that this is only your assumption?
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Old 12-20-2004, 05:01 AM   #167
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Depends on the child, seriously. If my child asked "why is the kettle boiling" she is asking "why is the water bubbling?", "why is there steam?" etc. Trust me, the questions go on and one. Takes after her mother.

Other children may well be asking "why are you doing that? "

Its a completely different mind set.

Let me tell you a story. Growing up a few friends and myself where given a magna doodle. The other children immediately sat down and started scribbling on it.

I asked my father how it worked. My father and some of his mates, immediately began unscrewing it and inspecting the iron filings on the inside, and explained to me how magnets work. That is the kind of answer I wanted. But not the answer the children next to me wanted (nor received from their parents)

Its a different mind set.
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Old 12-20-2004, 05:03 AM   #168
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It is not an explanation it is a hypothesis, simply put we do not have a full and proper explaination of the universe, that requires investigation - only when the facts are on the table would I be willing to tell you that whatever the cause of the universe, it is a scientific fact.
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Old 12-20-2004, 05:05 AM   #169
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
It is not an explanation it is a hypothesis, simply put we do not have a full and proper explaination of the universe, that requires investigation - only when the facts are on the table would I be willing to tell you that whatever the cause of the universe, it is a scientific fact.
Agreed. I do think we will be long dead before all the facts are on the table though.
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Old 12-20-2004, 05:05 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally posted by beli

Let me tell you a story. Growing up a few friends and myself where given a magna doodle. The other children immediately sat down and started scribbling on it.

I asked my father how it worked. My father and some of his mates, immediately began unscrewing it and inspecting the iron filings on the inside, and explained to me how magnets work. That is the kind of answer I wanted. But not the answer the children next to me wanted (nor received from their parents)

Its a different mind set.
You sound like a very special person Beli. Your poor parents though- lol!

However, if you are going to reinterpret my stories with you as the main character.......I better be even more careful what I write
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Old 12-20-2004, 05:09 AM   #171
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I dont think Im that special, LOL. Im guessing A Wanderer was probably a similar kind of child, inquisitive, questioning. Thats my point. Believing or not believing in gods is fundamentally a different chain of thoughts.
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Old 12-20-2004, 05:11 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
It is not an explanation it is a hypothesis, simply put we do not have a full and proper explaination of the universe, that requires investigation - only when the facts are on the table would I be willing to tell you that whatever the cause of the universe, it is a scientific fact.
So you're not even curious to know the cause? Do you just decide it can't be known? I'm interested to know how you came to that conclusion?
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Old 12-20-2004, 05:13 AM   #173
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Originally posted by beli
I dont think Im that special, LOL. Im guessing A Wanderer was probably a similar kind of child, inquisitive, questioning. Thats my point. Believing or not believing in gods is fundamentally a different chain of thoughts.
So are you implying I am not inquisitive or questioning?
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Old 12-20-2004, 05:14 AM   #174
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On the contrary I am curious to understand the universe, and I have an open mind to the universe and the possibilities of other universes; but to find the answers requires observation and inference, not blind faith. Explaining away the universe with a man made concept such as God is not the way to approach such a monumentous problem.

It may not happen in the next century, it may not happen in the next millenia but the search itself is sometimes more rewarding than the answer.
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Old 12-20-2004, 05:16 AM   #175
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Can I answer this too?

Mostly cause A Wanderer will give a well reasoned argument and I will speak off the top of my head

Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing

So you're not even curious to know the cause?
Very curious but if there are no facts / no evidence then there is no answer and I must wait.

Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing

Do you just decide it can't be known?
Not know at this point in time. Some things will not be known in my life time. Thems the breaks. Im not going to accept an implausible answer (to me) just to have an answer.
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Old 12-20-2004, 05:21 AM   #176
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So are you implying I am not inquisitive or questioning?
To a certain degree, in a different way. I really need to sleep before I answer this one.

errrm. A belief in a god requires faith, which by definition does not require evidence.
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Old 12-20-2004, 05:24 AM   #177
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And evidence is what all this is about, I am not leaping to great conclusions about the history of life on this planet, we have evidence of what came before, a record of life within the fossil record and I am saying that man is a creature that fits just like everything else.
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Old 12-20-2004, 05:31 AM   #178
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
but to find the answers requires observation and inference, not blind faith. Explaining away the universe with a man made concept such as God is not the way to approach such a monumentous problem.

It may not happen in the next century, it may not happen in the next millenia but the search itself is sometimes more rewarding than the answer.
Just to give you a bit of context for where I am coming from- my Great Uncle was professor Raymond Dart, neuroanatomist & anthropologist and discoverer of "Australopithecus". While he was chair of anatomy in the school of medicine for the University of Witwatersrand in South Africa, he battled orthodox anthropology to propose a whole new branch of evolutionary theory and that man's origin was in Africa and not Asia as was thought at the time.

My family has certainly not been one where critical evaluation of the universe was surpressed, and I grew up with a very enquiring mind. My position of belief in a creator was not arrived at through "blind faith" and in fact I find a very intellectually satisfying result to my searching for answers in life.
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Old 12-20-2004, 05:43 AM   #179
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Cool. I hope you got to meet and spend time with him. Explains why you are one of the few, if not the only Christian in this thread. (Apologies to Angie)

My family are all metallurgists / chemical engineers.

My second cousin is a professor of evolutionary developmental biology.

So its all science and maths in my family.
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Old 12-20-2004, 05:46 AM   #180
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You must forgive me, I sometimes regress into my argumentative prose on issues of creationism - thankfully you are not a young earth creationist and so intelligent conversation on the topic can begin.

Now the question of God and a creator - I cannot arrive at such a conclusion for life. I think that the universe exists and is governed by laws, I think that life is a product of these conditions. The issue is where the universe comes from and why it is the way that it is. That is an incomprehensibly difficult question. The existence of a creator of the universe or the non-existence of a creator is the key to this debate. Now I would gladly accept that a creator exists if incontravertable evidence was presented in favour but this has not been presented. I refuse to assume that a creator exists when there is nil evidence for it.
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