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Old 01-09-2007, 08:08 AM   #46
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and once the evil that is tobacco is completely banned we can get down to outlawing alcohol - a drug that causes so many unneccesary deaths.

Maybe it's unfair, this is an anti-smoking thread, smoking will kill you - lets take the argument into the smokers thread.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:10 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lara Mullen


I think that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while.

Yes it is.

Why should some people's bad habit be forced on anyone else? I have no problem with people smoking in their own homes or cars or even in open spaces outdoors. But smoking in enclosed public places -- even privately owned public places (which are regulated so there is no expectation of being able to do completely as one pleases) -- does force it on people who do not wish it.

A non smoker shouldn't have to decide not see a band or breathe filthy air because the club has people smoking in it. The air should be good for everyone. And the smokers can still smoke -- they just have to go outside to do so. How in the world is that infringing on their liberty?
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:13 AM   #48
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer


and once the evil that is tobacco is completely banned we can get down to outlawing alcohol - a drug that causes so many unneccesary deaths.
The alcohol the person next to me is drinking doesn't find it's way into my body. The smoke from the person smoking next to me does.

You are supposedly a smart guy. You know that is a big difference.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:23 AM   #49
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Is it really? If my eyes water when I go near a neighbours heavily chlorinated pool is it my right to force them to lower the ammounts? If I am standing in a designated smoking area does my 'right' to breath clean air demand that the smokers around me butt out? If I walk into an opium den.... you get the picture - I don't think that we have rights or entitlements over the enviornment in limited settings of private property (so a smoke filled room - thats fine, dumping heavy metals that leech into my back yard not okay).
Yes, it really is.

Would you think it's okay to smoke around a baby or young child anywhere? Probably not. So why is it okay to smoke around a non-smoker? It's not like it's healthy for them to be breathing in smoke fumes either.

Alcohol isn't the same. Someone who is blinding drunk and sitting beside me isn't the same as somone puffing away all night at the next table. I did a training course a while back for some voluntary work. I was told that I shouldn't take the person out drinking with me as it would set a bad example. That person was likely to be someone who would perhaps copy my behaviour, start drinking and wouldn't be able to stop until they were plastered. This person has some health/mental issues. Knowing that, I would never dream of stepping into a bar or drinking in that person's presence even though I'm over 18 and I can drink if I please. I wouldn't think of doing something that could harm this person so why would I smoke around someone who didn't smoke just because I could.

People should be able to go out and feel comfortable and not have their health put at risk. It's not about rights, or forcing people to do anything, or bar owners being able to enforce a ban - it's about having some respect for those around you and taking your posionous habit elsewhere. I thought by now everyone was well aware of the dangers of passive smoking.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:24 AM   #50
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Not when people make an argument based on health care costs or societal damage.

The smoke from that one person sitting in the bar probably won't have a dramatic effect on you, not any quantifiable harm - you aren't walking home with emphysema from that exposure and you are still electing to stay in that environment and the publican is allowing smoking on the premises.

The legitimate question of harm is of prolonged exposure in the context of the workplace and there I think that there can be a legal framework to protect employees with either good ventilation or legal recourse.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:30 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lara Mullen

Yes, it really is.

Would you think it's okay to smoke around a baby or young child anywhere? Probably not. So why is it okay to smoke around a non-smoker? It's not like it's healthy for them to be breathing in smoke fumes either.
Am I talking about kindergartens and delivery rooms - no - I am talking about bars and clubs, places without babies and young children around. Children don't consent about being exposed to second hand smoke, those who choose to stay around when somebody lights up or to stay quiet are giving implicit consent. I do not think that you have the right to use government force to prevent people hurting themselves either by smoking or hanging around smokers
Quote:
Alcohol isn't the same. Someone who is blinding drunk and sitting beside me isn't the same as somone puffing away all night at the next table.
They are both poisoning themselves and there are health risks to long term use that will be payed for with public money.
Quote:
People should be able to go out and feel comfortable and not have their health put at risk. It's not about rights, or forcing people to do anything, or bar owners being able to enforce a ban - it's about having some respect for those around you and taking your posionous habit elsewhere. I thought by now everyone was well aware of the dangers of passive smoking.
Yes they are; and if you want to protect your lungs then don't expose yourself - enjoy the freedom of choice and go to the non-smoking venue, if somebody rudely lights up in front of you tell them that it is poor form but don't go off and get the government to take away other peoples right to smoke or own venues that will cater to smokers.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:31 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
If I am standing in a designated smoking area does my 'right' to breath clean air demand that the smokers around me butt out?
You can't compare a bar or pub with a "designated smoking area".

There you have it, the word designated. But a bar or pub doesn't contain the word smoker designated.

Lara Mullen, my point was that, if the owner of any venue didn't abolish smoking in his building he couldn't make the excusion that the state still hasn't banned smoking. If he didn't want anyone to smoke in his e.g. bar, he should make a sign.
If he doesn't do so, he can't blame the state.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:34 AM   #53
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We are talking about an abstract right to breath clean air; I do not hold that to be true because there are environments where the air is shitty and if you don't want to be exposed you should just walk away: if these areas are private property I don't have the right to use force to make myself (who doesn't own it) comfortable.

I say it again I am anti-smoking, we have known for decades of the carcinogenic effects and the joys of emphysema and if your addicted quitting sucks; but I love the freedom to smoke or to walk away from smokers. Smokers are a minority, a lot of people think it's a filthy habbit and will not put up with a smoky resteraunt or bar; this should force owners to cater for the masses fairly - it will deliver the same result without what I see as unwarranted and wrongheaded regulatory interference.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:45 AM   #54
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There you have it, the word designated. But a bar or pub doesn't contain the word smoker designated.
Unless there is a no-smoking policy in place then it is somewhere people can light up.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:48 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
They are both poisoning themselves and there are health risks to long term use that will be payed for with public money.
This isn't the discussion anymore.
The posts written here were all about the effects of passive smoking,
I know, these effects are sometimes over-exaggerated, but still there are negative effects on your body.
And in some cases these effects are life threatening.
And there is the difference between smoking and drinking.
When you drink your beer or vodka, the alcohol only enters your body.
But if you smoke, the hazardous substances will also enter the body of the people around you.


Quote:

Yes they are; and if you want to protect your lungs then don't expose yourself - enjoy the freedom of choice and go to the non-smoking venue, if somebody rudely lights up in front of you tell them that it is poor form but don't go off and get the government to take away other peoples right to smoke or own venues that will cater to smokers.
At least here in Germany that would mean that I couldn't enter any bar, disco, concert hall etc.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:48 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
They are both poisoning themselves and there are health risks to long term use that will be payed for with public money.Yes they are; and if you want to protect your lungs then don't expose yourself - enjoy the freedom of choice and go to the non-smoking venue, if somebody rudely lights up in front of you tell them that it is poor form but don't go off and get the government to take away other peoples right to smoke or own venues that will cater to smokers.
Yes, smokers and drinkers put their health at risk but I'm going to breathe in smoke, alcohol isn't going to go into my body unless I choose to do that. And yes, both smoking and drinking cost the public money. I don't get why you're making this point though. That's a fact most people are already aware of.

You could smoke your brains out all day long for all I care. I think it's rude to have to be subjected to someone else smoking. If anyone is going to put a smoker's rights before health well it's just ridiculous. That person has the right to smoke just as much as I have the right not to sit in a smoke filled haze while I have a coffee.

Vincent, I don't think bar owner's here have the right to just put a sign up not allowing folk to smoke. They are campaigning that they should have this right, however, once the ban is in place in April.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:51 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Unless there is a no-smoking policy in place then it is somewhere people can light up.
Yes, in a designated smoking area you aren't allowed to blame anyone for smoking or even force him to stop smoking.

But we aren't talking about designated smoking areas.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:51 AM   #58
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I'm still bothered by the fact that it's legal, considering how overtly lethal tobacco is.

And before someone goes on a "libertarian" rant, the government asserts its control over the legality of substances on a regular basis, such as with OTC/prescription drugs, and removes substances that are fatal/dangerous all the time.

The only reason that it's never been banned, of course, is that tobacco is the "white man's drug."
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:53 AM   #59
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Originally posted by Lara Mullen

Vincent, I don't think bar owner's here have the right to just put a sign up not allowing folk to smoke. They are campaigning that they should have this right, however, once the ban is in place in April.
Ah, ok, that's a difference
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:55 AM   #60
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
and once the evil that is tobacco is completely banned we can get down to outlawing alcohol - a drug that causes so many unneccesary deaths.
A specious argument in light of the health benefits in moderate alcohol usage. If we banned every healthy/benign substance that has the potential for abuse, then we'd probably have to ban everything.

Tobacco, on the other hand, is not benign or healthy and has nothing but harmful effects. That makes it a logical candidate for being banned.
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