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Old 09-07-2005, 07:23 PM   #76
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Old 09-07-2005, 07:57 PM   #77
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Re: Re: The American poor

Quote:
Originally posted by dazzledbylight
The Old CAlvanistic " if you're poor than you're a moral failure, the converse being if you're RICH you are {automatically} a virturous person" still runs very strong.
Actually, Calvinism believes the opposite, that good works (or success -> riches) has no bearing on your status with God b/c only the saving grace of Christ can save you.


Anyway, there's this statistic I remember learning in business...something like X% of people are only 2 paychecks away from poverty.....anyone know the X-amount?
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Old 09-07-2005, 08:10 PM   #78
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Originally posted by U2Bama

(2) are able to unionize (You may not accept this - they are able to vote on whether to unionize; so far, employees have not favored unionizing. I do not think they should be forced to.) ...

SOme of them don't want to unionize; many people like one I know very well, in this area, disagree with the political structure of today's organized labor and see the attempts to unionize Alabama's plants as an attempt more designed to build up the political clout of organized labor than to benefit the Alabama auto workforce.a
you've brought up an excellent point that probably deserves a discussion in its own right. i don't think people should be forced into unionizing either. if they disregard the opportunity then that is their choice. at least they had the chance. i guess the larger issue here is the disintegration of organized labor's character, for lack of a better term. i can't argue the fact that a lot unions are caught up in political bullshit and really lose sight of their intended purpose. i'm not even sure how democratically controlled most unions are but i imagine your common laborer does not have much direct say in policies and decisions. i don't believe that the union has seen its day as someone else has suggested, but i do believe that current incarnations are failing. if organized labor all but evaporates i cannot imagine the consequences that would have on domestic workers. a complete overhaul and democratic revitalization is in order but would require leadership and organization much further left of center than most people in this country are willing to accept. again, this is a little off topic and could warrant an independent discussion. in fact, i don't even recall what we were talking about.
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Old 09-07-2005, 08:14 PM   #79
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Re: Re: Re: The American poor

Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


Actually, Calvinism believes the opposite, that good works (or success -> riches) has no bearing on your status with God b/c only the saving grace of Christ can save you.


Anyway, there's this statistic I remember learning in business...something like X% of people are only 2 paychecks away from poverty.....anyone know the X-amount?

oh sorry bout that.... don't want to point fingers in the wrong direction!

well, I know it's in some type of Protestian faith, that I do know.
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Old 09-07-2005, 08:18 PM   #80
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Originally posted by deep

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment.
here is a good example of why the protestant work ethic is such bullshit. how the hell are people supposed to fend for themselves when they can't even read?

oh but if they weren't so goddamn lazy they would make an effort to learn to read and pull themselves out of their poverty. it's my estimation that a lot of those people are more concerned with putting food on the table and having electricity than being able to read the latest edition of cosmo. this is where organized labor has an opportunity to step in and make a world of difference for these people with literacy classes, etc. it's too bad union bosses are too busy bullshitting in washington.
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Old 09-07-2005, 08:43 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en
here is a good example of why the protestant work ethic is such bullshit. how the hell are people supposed to fend for themselves when they can't even read?
This is the fault of the protestant work ethic? It couldn't be the school system.
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Old 09-07-2005, 09:00 PM   #82
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


This is the fault of the protestant work ethic? It couldn't be the school system.
were you planning on donating some more tax money to fix the school system or did you just want a voucher to send your kids off to prep school?
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Old 09-07-2005, 09:01 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en this is where organized labor has an opportunity to step in and make a world of difference for these people with literacy classes, etc. it's too bad union bosses are too busy bullshitting in washington.
Why is literacy the job of union bosses? Shouldn't the schools teach these people BEFORE they ever have an opportunity to enter into the job market?

Further more, how are the people going to read the union election cards to organize in the first place?
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Old 09-07-2005, 09:02 PM   #84
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Ah, yes. The notion that more money will fix the school system is completely false. Some of the highest per capita spending on students occurs in areas with the lowest test scores.

I'll skip the smart alec prep school remark.
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Old 09-07-2005, 09:06 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by zonelistener


Why is literacy the job of union bosses? Shouldn't the schools teach these people BEFORE they ever have an opportunity to enter into the job market?


what are you talking about? i was simply pointing out an opportunity to make a real difference in workers lives, who for whatever reason, suffer from poor reading skills. it's not that tough.
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Old 09-07-2005, 09:07 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Ah, yes. The notion that more money will fix the school system is completely false. Some of the highest per capita spending on students occurs in areas with the lowest test scores.

I'll skip the smart alec prep school remark.
the entire sentence was a smart ass remark. one deserves another.
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Old 09-07-2005, 09:17 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep







iTHE GREAT JOBS SCAM
I'm sorry deep, but the title of that article you posted is a bit misleading as to what the contents reveal.

This quote in particular from your article deserves attention:

Quote:
"The level of the workforce in general is so high that the training program you need for people, even for people who have not worked in a Toyota plant before, is minimal compared to what you have to go through in the southeastern United States," said Gerry Fedchun, president of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association, whose members will see increased business with the new plant [...]
I've seen the same type of statements when Detroit and other traditional, union-dominant marketshave competed against Southern markets for auto plant placements. But in this case, it's important to note that Gerry Fedchun's organization is a business trade interest lobby; in fact, it is is Canada's national association representing OEM producers of parts, equipment, tools, supplies and services for the worldwide automotive industry. It is not Toyota. Perhaps he should not be speaking for Toyota (who, interestingly invested $490 million in Alabama in the form of an engine plant in Huntsville.

Toyota even retorted Mr. Fedchun's lies in a letter to him:

"I can tell you without equivocation that our Alabama work force is literate, well-trained and productive," Toyota Senior Vice President Dennis Cuneo wrote in a letter to Fedchun.

An article from the BIRMINGHAM NEWS appears here and I have posted it below since al.com requires registration:

Quote:
Developing auto workers not problem
Sunday, July 10, 2005
There is one not-so-secret reason that Alabama continues to see so much growth in its emerging auto industry - and it has nothing to do with incentives.
The key has been how quickly Alabama workers have adapted to the challenges of building sophisticated automobiles such as the M-Class and the Odyssey minivan.
"We just know that our workers are really the strength of the growth and expansions that we've had at the plants throughout the state," said Neal Wade, executive director of the Alabama Development Office.
That's why it's a bit mystifying that the quality of Alabama's auto workers came under attack last week from Gerry Fedchun, head of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association, a major trade group in Canada.
Fedchun told a reporter for the Canadian Press wire service that Honda has had troubles with its Alabama work force, preventing it from reaching full production at its plant in Lincoln. Not true, considering Honda says it set up its operations in Alabama in record time, ahead of schedule.
Worse, Fedchun told the reporter than workers hired for Alabama auto plants are often illiterate and sometimes had to be shown "pictorials" by trainers so they could figure out how to operate high-tech machinery.
Fedchun's remarks were meant to show why Toyota picked a site in Canada for a new auto plant rather than one in Alabama.
"The level of the work force in general is so high that the training program you need for people, even for people who have not worked in a Toyota plant before, is minimal compared to what you have to go through in the Southeastern United States," Fedchun said.
But the comments drew a quick response from a key executive for Toyota, which has plans to invest $490 million at its engine plant in Huntsville.
"I can tell you without equivocation that our Alabama work force is literate, well-trained and productive," Toyota Senior Vice President Dennis Cuneo wrote in a letter to Fedchun.
Apparently, Toyota has not had to resort to "pictorials."
While it's true many Alabama auto workers were novices when it came to assembling vehicles, it's worth noting the state has a top-notch worker training program that is the only one in the nation to win an ISO 9000 certification from the International Organization for Standardization.
"Not only do we have an educated work force in Alabama, we also have the added advantage of the state's training program - which was ranked No. 1 in the U.S. by Expansion Management magazine," Cuneo wrote.
"Together, the Alabama work force and the state training have resulted in a winning combination for us."
While Alabama undeniably has its share of shortcomings when it comes to the education level of its citizens, developing skilled auto workers has not been a problem.
Need proof?
Here goes: Since 1993, Alabama has soaked up automotive industry investment topping $5 billion. Jerry Underwood is business editor of The News.
And by the way, I don't deny that literacy rates in Alabama are not where they should be. But a better job economy with business partners who invest in their communities can hopefully alleviate that. That is a big reason we seek auto plants and the like.

~U2Alabama
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Old 09-07-2005, 09:21 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by zonelistener

Haven't the plant workers voted down organizing? I thought I heard that.

They are making a livable wage (a lot more than WalMart), although it might not be what the UAW employees make in GM or Ford plants around the country...but that will be changing soon (knowing that GM and Ford aren't in the best of shape themselves).

Yes, the Mercedes workers have voted it down at least twice, maybe more.

The wages they are making are better against the standard of living in Alabama than the wages made at some plants against the standard of living in their respective union states.

~U2Alabama
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Old 09-07-2005, 09:34 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en




what are you talking about? i was simply pointing out an opportunity to make a real difference in workers lives, who for whatever reason, suffer from poor reading skills. it's not that tough.
Do you understand how a labor group gets "unionized"?

Before a union ever gets to create programs like this they need to get the employees to vote the union to orgaize. This is usually done with literature and voting cards, etc. The illiterate would not be able to read the pamphlets, little alone the election cards.

Again....the problem of literacy STARTS with schools, long before people ever get to the job market.
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Old 09-07-2005, 09:45 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoney!


Do you understand how a labor group gets "unionized"?

Before a union ever gets to create programs like this they need to get the employees to vote the union to orgaize. This is usually done with literature and voting cards, etc. The illiterate would not be able to read the pamphlets, little alone the election cards.


none of them can read at all? no one would hold meetings to talk to them? no one can help them recognize who they are or are not voting for? you're talking as if the would be completely deaf, dumb, and blind.

Quote:
Again....the problem of literacy STARTS with schools, long before people ever get to the job market.
no one is arguing that.
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