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Old 09-06-2005, 04:59 PM   #61
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Originally posted by phanan


Taking issue with someone else's comments is one thing, but to personally attack them over and over is something I would have thought you understood by now.
I've not personally attacked her (in this thread, I know one instance you speak of however). I'm just expressing my view. Infact I think I've been quite non-derogatory .
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Old 09-06-2005, 05:03 PM   #62
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lets move on....

back on topic that is.


there have been some excellent observations in here

being one of the senior posters here

i have seen a dramatic change in my lifetime.

GM was our largest employer for the longest time

UAW workers were paid a living wage and could afford to buy a home, had benefits and a modest pension.


Now our biggest employer is Walmart, they pay poverty wages, offer little, if any benefits at all.
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Old 09-06-2005, 05:04 PM   #63
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Thanks deep...this topic is very important and I want it to stay on track.
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Old 09-06-2005, 05:09 PM   #64
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I won't veer it off course myself again.
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Old 09-06-2005, 05:13 PM   #65
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Thanks
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Old 09-06-2005, 06:56 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
lets move on....

back on topic that is.


there have been some excellent observations in here

being one of the senior posters here

i have seen a dramatic change in my lifetime.

GM was our largest employer for the longest time

UAW workers were paid a living wage and could afford to buy a home, had benefits and a modest pension.


Now our biggest employer is Walmart, they pay poverty wages, offer little, if any benefits at all.
I would agree with you here....in the Northeast....CT where my family comes from...

WE used to make subs. We used to make boats....

Now the largest employer is the casinos.

In MA, the farming industry for Cranberries is not what it was, and our taxes are rising because we are trying to help the farmers.

There is no industry local that is on the rise....
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Old 09-06-2005, 08:40 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en


The poor may have the opportunity to get jobs but at what expense? Car plants move in, commercial centers spring up, and the next thing you know you've got Wal Mart moving in and driving out local business so everyone in town is working for pay to keep themselves minimally above the poverty line. Don't me wrong, if these car plants are moving in and giving people real jobs where they make acceptable wages, are able to unionize, are guaranteed job security, and are given health care benefits then that's great for now. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't recall a time in history when the ruling class genuinly had the interests of everyone else in mind, save for when they had to cover their own asses. It would seem that pacification passes for "common ground" all too often.
And here is where you and I may either have to agree to disagree/meet halfway or unfortunately reach an impasse.

In the 3 rural Alabama communities where auto plants have moved in (Vance - Mercedes-Benz; Lincoln - Honda; Hope Hull (Montgomery) - Hyundai), the ensuing development and greatest benefit to the job eceonomy has not been Wal-Marts but the plants themselves and the related supplier plants. None of the towns listed above even has its own Wal-Mart plant and Mercedes has been in Vance for close to 10 years.

But here's where we may have a problem: you require as your conditions:

(1) the car plants giving people real jobs where they make acceptable wages (CHECK)
(2) are able to unionize (You may not accept this - they are able to vote on whether to unionize; so far, employees have not favored unionizing. I do not think they should be forced to.)
(3) guaranteed job security (not sure of the specifics of job security you are demanding; something like tenure for public educators?)
(4) given health care benefits (CHECK)

SOme of them don't want to unionize; many people like one I know very well, in this area, disagree with the political structure of today's organized labor and see the attempts to unionize Alabama's plants as an attempt more designed to build up the political clout of organized labor than to benefit the Alabama auto workforce. I have not been hearing the bad stories about these 3 plants or the Toyota engine plant in the Huntsville area. And the unions are involved in the steel and mining industries here, but those industries have been shutting down there operations in this region over the past 40-50 years. In an attempt to retain a presence, the Steel Workers Union organized a local Wal Mart store (not the Commercial & Food Workers Union!).

~U2Alabama
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Old 09-06-2005, 09:16 PM   #68
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S Tielemans, there's a saying: that whatever happens in American eventually happens in the rest of the world. Often, it's true. We will face the same demographic problem starting in 5 years, when the first of the Baby Boomers hit 65. It's here already actually--many 55's and over taking early retirements. President Bush's plan to eliminate Social Security and replace it with private accounts appeared to be dead in the water as of last month, even to members of his own party, and after Katrina, I think we can say Social Security is going to be with us a good long while.

I hope that saying is true, because if it is, your benefits won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

I've been reading this thread with great interest, and I find it curious that while initially Katrina has appeared to blow the lid off the explosive issues of race and poverty, I think as time goes on the whole poverty issue, period, may finally come to the fore. The Depression was, of course, probably the last time we really saw poeverty in all its graphic ugliness dominate the nation's media. Now, in addition to the horrific aftermath of the cleanup, we may actually have a historic oportunity to finally bring these issues into the open, considering that for the first time since the '30s, we have a refugee crisis in this country. And we have not even begun to estimate the other economic effects we are all going to have to experience. The hurricane has done some horrific things, but on the bright side, disasters such as this often force social and political change. Along the way, the lid is blown off many things that were hidden and we have the chnace to change things for the better.

Just a thought.
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Old 09-06-2005, 09:25 PM   #69
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Some very interesting thoughts, Teta...I hope you're right, and these issues come to the forefront in a big way, and we can manage to really get some headway in taking care of them.

Again, I just find it utterly amazing all the things that have come out of one storm's power. Katrina's managed to do all of this. Wow.

Angela
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Old 09-06-2005, 09:32 PM   #70
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Katrina's managed to do all of this.
I know, she's such a bitch!
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Old 09-07-2005, 07:20 AM   #71
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Race and Poverty are greatly at play in this tragedy.

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle10147.htm
...
African-Americans after the end of slavery were 200 years behind their white counterparts, possessing little and owning nothing, undereducated and destitute, forced to jump a plethora of barriers, forced to live in a society where they were not welcome. For 100 years after winning their freedom African-Americans remained servile entities dependent on the meager wages, jobs and opportunities given them by white America. They owned no land and no business, forcing them to work for new masters under slave-like conditions. The name had changed from slave to laborer, but the result was the same. Still lagging decades if not centuries behind their Anglo counterparts, confronting societal racism and government indifference, the black community never really escaped slavery. While technically free, slave wages and slave income meant slave-like conditions. Without opportunity there was no escape, without escape there was no future.

It took another 100 years for black political power to grow to where civil rights could be afforded them, yet in that time African-Americans still could not escape the tremendous disadvantage slavery had engendered and racism had furthered. Those neighborhoods whites no longer cared to live in became black reservations. Jobs whites and European immigrants no longer wanted were instead given to blacks, the lowest end of the totem pole called American society. The disadvantages remain to this day, as exemplified by New Orleans. Little, if anything, has changed.

With no work in rural America blacks migrated to the large cities, afforded, because of low income and racism, no other housing except those inside the ghetto, the black concentration camp, designed to subjugate, exploit, hinder and incarcerate, implemented so white America would not have to be bothered by the black ‘plague’. Throwing away the keys to black neighborhoods, offering no meaningful employment, eviscerating any semblance of a worthy education, white America pretended the ghetto did not exist, even as millions lived in squalor, without opportunity, devoid futures and a chance for improved livelihoods.

By offering only slave wage jobs, though in very short supply with very large demand, thus making wages decrease, by incapacitating and making impotent education from pre-school through high school, by introducing fire-water, drugs and weapons into the inner city, by making high unemployment levels where blacks live, by offering not an ounce of compassion or opportunity, America’s government, and the elite that control it, have destroyed millions of lives, most teeming with abilities and talents on par with their white counterparts.

Social engineering has assured capitalistic and elite America that blacks remain far behind their white counterparts. Relegated to the slums and ghetto, forced to live in poverty, trapped in an almost inescapable vicious cycle of indigence, blacks thus become the slave of the capitalists, forced to scrap a living from the meager slave wage they are paid, forced to compete among each other for a small number of jobs, lacking the education necessary to move ahead in life and the resources to escape the internment camp the elite have shoved them into.

Without education there is pure ignorance and lack of knowledge. Without livable wages there is only slavery, living paycheck to paycheck, indebted more each day, forced to work innumerable hours for little happiness. Without opportunity thousands of blacks are forced to join the military, seen as the only escape, caste drafted into America’s armed forces, sent to foreign lands to become the cannon fodder of corporate greed. Without employment and education two million black men find themselves imprisoned in the largest prison system the world has ever seen, locked away for petty crimes, never to be seen again, products of environment and social engineering.

Black America is Third World America, exemplified by the devastation we have all witnessed in New Orleans. To sojourn into the inner city is to take a trip into Haiti, Sudan, Congo or Niger, a magic carpet ride into the third world, where poverty pervades, class warfare emanates and futures are lost. The ghetto is a reservation where blacks are to remain, surrounded by invisible barriers and walls seen only by the people residing within them. The inner city is to be forgotten, a place we pretend does not exist. We fail to hear its cries and see its tears and smell its rotting infrastructure, preferring to reside inside our white picket fences, believing in the masquerade of the American dream, where every human being is born equal, enjoying the comforts of living in an equal playing field, with the resources necessary to escape the wrath of a monstrous hurricane.
...
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Old 09-07-2005, 07:25 AM   #72
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Apologies for having to step in too late, but before this thread continues the Mod team would like to make it perfectly clear that there have been too many posts already, here, that have crossed the line.

We implore everyone to keep a cool head and a courteous tone. If there is yet another complaint concerning this thread I'm afraid it'll be time to call it a day, and it will be closed.

Play nice, please.

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Old 09-07-2005, 05:56 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama SOme of them don't want to unionize; many people like one I know very well, in this area, disagree with the political structure of today's organized labor and see the attempts to unionize Alabama's plants as an attempt more designed to build up the political clout of organized labor than to benefit the Alabama auto workforce.


Haven't the plant workers voted down organizing? I thought I heard that.

They are making a livable wage (a lot more than WalMart), although it might not be what the UAW employees make in GM or Ford plants around the country...but that will be changing soon (knowing that GM and Ford aren't in the best of shape themselves).

Unions have lost their clot. People are increasingly not seeing the need for them. They have had their time and place in US history...but they are on the way down right now.
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Old 09-07-2005, 06:26 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama


And here is where you and I may either have to agree to disagree/meet halfway or unfortunately reach an impasse.

In the 3 rural Alabama communities where auto plants have moved in (Vance - Mercedes-Benz; Lincoln - Honda; Hope Hull (Montgomery) - Hyundai), the ensuing development and greatest benefit to the job eceonomy has not been Wal-Marts but the plants themselves and the related supplier plants. None of the towns listed above even has its own Wal-Mart plant and Mercedes has been in Vance for close to 10 years.



Quote:
Toyota Reveals Limits of Great Southern Jobs Scam
Last month, Toyota made a decision that didn't get a lot of press, but sent ripples of concern through state houses across the South.

The Japanese auto giant announced that it was going to bypass offers of hundreds of millions of dollars in "recruitment incentives" (corporate subsidies) from several Southern states, and would instead set up shop in Ontario, Canada, which was offering much fewer give-aways.

The decision to head north was an embarassment for Southern states eagerly competing to lure Toyota, on several levels. Not only did they lose a trophy job-creator for their state. But the reason Toyota gave for the move was especially damning:

"The level of the workforce in general is so high that the training program you need for people, even for people who have not worked in a Toyota plant before, is minimal compared to what you have to go through in the southeastern United States," said Gerry Fedchun, president of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association, whose members will see increased business with the new plant [...]

Several U.S. states were reportedly prepared to offer more than double [the] subsidy [Southern states were offering]. But Fedchun said much of that extra money would have been eaten away by higher training costs than are necessary for the Woodstock project.

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment.

Starting with Alabama's successful bid to lure a Mercedes plant in 1992 with an incentive package that eventually cost over $300 million in tax breaks and other give-aways -- while the state's education system was under court order for lack of funding -- Southern states have shoveled billions of dollars to huge foreign automakers, turning the South into the "new Detroit."

But now companies are waking up to the limitations of locating in a state that cares more about handing out tax breaks than investing in its people.
iTHE GREAT JOBS SCAM
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Old 09-07-2005, 06:42 PM   #75
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Re: The American poor

Quote:
Originally posted by U2democrat
I hope the tragedy down in the gulf has shown us that poverty is still a major problem here in America too. Rarely, if ever in FYM do I see people discussing the plight of the poor here in America. Don't get me wrong the poor people around the world have it rough too, but let's not let them overshadow those in our own backyard.

Why is it that the American poor are rarely discussed here in FYM? Does it make us uncomfortable? Is it more comforting to think that poverty is "over there"?

I'm just throwing those questions out there, I have a difficult time answering them myself.

U2 dem I'm responding w/o looking at other posts first cause i want to go off to the FUn part of the board ...so I hope i am not rehashing too much of what others have SaiD...and thanks for asking the question.

I think i am fairly articulate {yes my typos are legion at times when i'm rushing - since i can't afford the net I'm eitheer limited by time/money at the various places I can use the net publically}, have read/listened to alot over the years and am willing to sometimes put a face/experince to the term "poor".

I have on rare occasions mentioned that I am poor- not destitute but definatley poor, when discussing certain issues here that have or could affect me depending on what cuts are further made in various budgets.
I can discuss other things that i don't get/are eligible for but know others who are/ or are d being denied.

I didn't grow-up poor, I was in a modestly middle class family {our mom's illness took alot of our extra, extra money-- we certainly did a bunch of things middle class people did, but like we never took vactions any further away than New England/So Jersey.
We drove, no airplanes to California or Europe { like some of our other MC friends did}.

I stayed modestly middle-class for a couple of decades until a slew of things sort of one after the other happend that resulted in poverty for me.
Hopefully within these next few years I'll be somewhat climbing out of that. If I'm really, really lucky I could do very well, but it's well, not the best odds- but possible.

Alot of people DON"T like to think about....because it can trip off/trigger their own fears {not the really well off as singles or with family}....of possilbr future poverty. ANd since alot of Americans live from paycheck to paycheck......that's not an unreralistic fear.

Psychologically they might want to push the objects fo their fears away.

AND very importantly to Remember in this American Society...their are several strong themes....some coming up stronger than others at times.... that work against the poor being considered 1st class citizens

there's the 'Pull yourself up by the bootstraps" Rugged Individualist theme. it links to the.....

The Old CAlvanistic " if you're poor than you're a moral failure, the converse being if you're RICH you are {automatically} a virturous person" still runs very strong.

That ALSO TIES INTO HOW the USA values money/work above ALL else....where in Europe if you are poor but a good person, or a poor or person of really modest means who {besides being a good person} has that {# WARNING# using a French Expression} Joi de verve [sp?]..."joy of Life" you are considered a a person of good reputation. what you earn is NOT the top indicator of your worth.
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