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Old 09-06-2005, 01:50 AM   #46
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I really don't think that education is the answer. Think about it. If everyone in the country had a college degree, we would still need a TON of people to fill low wage jobs because they are necessary. We are guaranteeing that a certain proportion of the population will always be in poverty because we are not willing to pay people a decent wage because they are just a janitor/cashier/farm hand. They are for some reason not worthy of having a decent place to live and food on the table even if they work themselves to death. Now, I'm not saying that a janitor should be making the same amount as a professional, but if you put in a hard days work you should be able to make enough to have a decent place to live and food on the table. But a lot of people don't treat workers in the service sector like they're really people anyway so .
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Old 09-06-2005, 02:49 AM   #47
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What got me about the aftermath of the hurricane was the attitudes to the looters. Shoot first, ask questions later. Sending in the army with shoot to kill orders.

Do Americans really value property over the life of other humans that much???

While looting is obviously wrong, and law and order needs to be maintained. Given the shocking response of the government and its abject failure to provide immediate and appropriate assistance to its people, it's not surprising to see people resort to looting to obtain food and water. While some might be stealing TV's and electrical equipment, the majority will just be looking for their next meal. For that they deserve an immediate death sentence???

Property can be repaired and replaced, people can not.
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Old 09-06-2005, 05:50 AM   #48
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I think when we are speaking of "education" we are not speaking of college degrees. We are talking about the fundamentals, which so many kids aren't getting. Things like reading, problem solving, money management, and basic health topics such as sex ed.
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Old 09-06-2005, 06:38 AM   #49
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Originally posted by U2Bama

Basically, to answer your question, I guess I'll say that their common interest is opportunity.
The poor may have the opportunity to get jobs but at what expense? Car plants move in, commercial centers spring up, and the next thing you know you've got Wal Mart moving in and driving out local business so everyone in town is working for pay to keep themselves minimally above the poverty line. Don't me wrong, if these car plants are moving in and giving people real jobs where they make acceptable wages, are able to unionize, are guaranteed job security, and are given health care benefits then that's great for now. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't recall a time in history when the ruling class genuinly had the interests of everyone else in mind, save for when they had to cover their own asses. It would seem that pacification passes for "common ground" all too often.

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Do Americans really value property over the life of other humans that much???
A vast majority of American values are centered around the supposed sanctity of private property.
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Old 09-06-2005, 10:34 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by ILuvLarryMullen
I really don't think that education is the answer. Think about it. If everyone in the country had a college degree, we would still need a TON of people to fill low wage jobs because they are necessary. We are guaranteeing that a certain proportion of the population will always be in poverty because we are not willing to pay people a decent wage because they are just a janitor/cashier/farm hand. They are for some reason not worthy of having a decent place to live and food on the table even if they work themselves to death. Now, I'm not saying that a janitor should be making the same amount as a professional, but if you put in a hard days work you should be able to make enough to have a decent place to live and food on the table. But a lot of people don't treat workers in the service sector like they're really people anyway so .
I'm not talking about a college education...I'm talking about basic education. I have dealt with sooooo many people who have graduated from high school and are illiterate. No only does this render them unfit to hold even many low wage jobs, but it also hampers them in every aspect of their life. How are they gonna read the labels on medicine bottles, or make sure a contract they sign (for an apartment, car, etc.) doesn't screw them over royally, or understand their bank statements and bills? Basic education isn't just about getting a job, it's about having the skills to be able to rise above mere survival.

So that's what I mean when I say education is one big key to reducing poverty.

*edited to note that U2dork just explained it much more succinctly than I did.
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Old 09-06-2005, 11:09 AM   #51
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U2dork, popshopper, indra-I agree with your posts in particular, some excellent points raised here .

Also...

Quote:
Originally posted by indra
I have dealt with sooooo many people who have graduated from high school and are illiterate.
Similar things happened in Iowa...the kids I went to school with could read, but I saw kids who had a hard time spelling basic words and things along that line, which is a skill that's also quite vital to being able to do a job adequately. A lot of those kids were sitting pretty comfy then, as they were still living with their parents, but whenever they venture out on their own...it's worrying.

Angela
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Old 09-06-2005, 11:20 AM   #52
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When I said that education wasn't the answer I wasn't specifically replying to anyone's post. Of course basic education is important for any kind of job and we need to make sure that everyone is getting this kind of education. What I was saying is that (higher) education is not going to solve the problem of the working poor as a whole. It was meant as more of a response to people/politicians who talk about solving poverty through higher education, that can only work for a limited number of individuals.
Anyway the point of my post was not really about education, and maybe i should have left that part out, but that we have created a permenant underclass by refusing to pay many of those who work a decent wage. National minimum wage is $5.15 for god's sake! If you want to talk about morality in this country, THAT is immoral.
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Old 09-06-2005, 11:34 AM   #53
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I will be completely honest here, as far as I can be. I don't know Jamila, and can only take her word. However I don't believe it for everything its worth. I have my opinions on why she might be in whatever situation she is in, but I know this pure opinion WILL get me banned, no matter how true it may be.

So I'll leave things at that, but with a little whimper for the discerning of this thread.
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Old 09-06-2005, 11:35 AM   #54
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Perhaps something positive will come out of this hurricane nightmare....middle America will no longer be able to pretend that poverty does not exist in your country.

Its never had the audacity to stare them in the face before.
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Old 09-06-2005, 03:42 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by ILuvLarryMullen
When I said that education wasn't the answer I wasn't specifically replying to anyone's post. Of course basic education is important for any kind of job and we need to make sure that everyone is getting this kind of education. What I was saying is that (higher) education is not going to solve the problem of the working poor as a whole. It was meant as more of a response to people/politicians who talk about solving poverty through higher education, that can only work for a limited number of individuals.
Anyway the point of my post was not really about education, and maybe i should have left that part out, but that we have created a permenant underclass by refusing to pay many of those who work a decent wage. National minimum wage is $5.15 for god's sake! If you want to talk about morality in this country, THAT is immoral.
I agree. I don't think any one thing will solve the problem of poverty. So many things have to change, from wage structures to attitudes (of just about everyone, from the very richest to the very poorest), to have really, permanent change. I fear it will take generations to accomplish under the best of conditions...and we aren't even close to having the best of conditions.

As for the minimum wage (and close to minimum)...what's even worse is that many of the lowest paying jobs are also the ones that offer few, if any benefits, while the people making the most in salary also have the best benefit packages. How are people supposed to pay for insurance or health care as well as rent, utilities, food, transportation costs on $5.15 an hour?
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Old 09-06-2005, 03:57 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Palace_Hero
I will be completely honest here, as far as I can be. I don't know Jamila, and can only take her word. However I don't believe it for everything its worth. I have my opinions on why she might be in whatever situation she is in, but I know this pure opinion WILL get me banned, no matter how true it may be.

So I'll leave things at that, but with a little whimper for the discerning of this thread.
Questioning another poster's integrity with no basis whatsoever isn't acceptable. If you would like to take issue with any of Jamila's comments in this thread then you are welcome to do so, but you need to stick to discussing the comments instead of questioning Jamila's integrity or making judgements about her situation in life when you can't possibly have sufficient information to do so.
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Old 09-06-2005, 04:11 PM   #57
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Thank you, FizzingWhizzbees.

I just got home from my PT job and from looking for FT work only to find myself attacked again in a thread in which I posted nothing inflammatory or disrespectful of anyone else's opinion or situation.

I would really like to know what gives here - why am I always an easy target for potshots when I'm not even really in the current conversation?

Those who know me here at Interference know that I am completely truthful about my life - I have nothing to be ashamed about or to hide.

And the sad thing is that I'm just about ready to post a hero's story from Hurricane Katrina!

Why all the unwarranted negativity?

LOVE AND PEACE....
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Old 09-06-2005, 04:44 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


Questioning another poster's integrity with no basis whatsoever isn't acceptable. If you would like to take issue with any of Jamila's comments in this thread then you are welcome to do so, but you need to stick to discussing the comments instead of questioning Jamila's integrity or making judgements about her situation in life when you can't possibly have sufficient information to do so.
I've said all I needed to say.
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Old 09-06-2005, 04:45 PM   #59
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And Jamila, it is due to your comments and I think loose view on poor black people that I take issue.
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Old 09-06-2005, 04:51 PM   #60
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Originally posted by Palace_Hero
And Jamila, it is due to your comments and I think loose view on poor black people that I take issue.
Taking issue with someone else's comments is one thing, but to personally attack them over and over is something I would have thought you understood by now.
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