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Old 11-12-2006, 02:01 PM   #46
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Originally posted by trevster2k
Whatever policy changes the administration decides upon, well, if there is a change, it better be committed to it. Bush keeps declaring how they can't afford not to win, clash of civilizations, sky is falling, etc. IF it is all he claims, then send over half a million troops, restore order, reconstruct, setup the puppet democracy and declare victory. Not committing enough troops and having a slow descent to hell is just as bad as leaving outright. If the infusion of thousands and thousand of troops doesn't change the situation, call it a day and come home. Otherwise, the US might as well include the Iraq War funding as a permanent part of the budget each year. In any case, do something, cause the buck stops with Bush. I don't think the Dems will touch Iraq unless it is forced upon them, cause there is no easy answer, and the last thing they want is to be tainted by Bush's Iraq adventure. Bush has the final say so all the Dems can do is suggest policy anyway, not force it.

Bill Maher suggested come home regardless since all the people they went over their to "help" are either dead or have left the country. The rest are ethnically cleansing themselves and whatever happens in Iraq is going to happen whether the US is there or not. Interesting take, hardcore view but he has a point.
The United States could double the number of troops in Iraq to around 280,000 troops, but there are not enough US ground combat Brigades to bring the total to 500,000 or more since there has to be 1 Brigade at home for ever Brigade deployed so that units can rotate out of the combat zone after a year to rest and refit. Certainly, deployments could be extended indefintely, but then you start to run into problems that degrade the units combat effectivness.

The central solution to the problems in Iraq continues to be training the Iraqi military and police forces to a level that will eventually allow the US military to withdraw. Nation Building and Counter Insurgency operations take years if not decades to succeed. Its way too early to be calling the operation a failure, considering how long they have historically taken to succeed.
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Old 11-12-2006, 02:22 PM   #47
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Back to your original question, where in the exit polls does it say that the majority of people believed that Bush was wrong on Iraq in November 2004?
I am on the original question. You made a point. I have a plethera of articles that explain the screwiness of the 2004 election.

I never said anywhere in my premise that the American people thought Bush was wrong. I quoted the polls that show that as of 2004 the American public felt that the war was going poorly.

I quoted the polls that demonstrate Morality was the top issue for the voters.

I demonstrated that the state that put this president back in office was Ohio in which Gay Marriage was on the ballot. I demonstrated that EVERY county in Ohio voted down Gay Marriage and supported Bush. I demonstrated that the Ohio exit polls in 2004 mirrored the sentiment of the country as a whole, that Iraq was not the main issue for them and that Iraq was going poorly. I showed that this time around, a number of states that went Republican in 2004, elected democrats in 2006. I demonstrated that exit polls showed that the Iraq War was the top priority this time around.
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Old 11-12-2006, 03:18 PM   #48
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I am on the original question. You made a point. I have a plethera of articles that explain the screwiness of the 2004 election.

I never said anywhere in my premise that the American people thought Bush was wrong. I quoted the polls that show that as of 2004 the American public felt that the war was going poorly.

I quoted the polls that demonstrate Morality was the top issue for the voters.

I demonstrated that the state that put this president back in office was Ohio in which Gay Marriage was on the ballot. I demonstrated that EVERY county in Ohio voted down Gay Marriage and supported Bush. I demonstrated that the Ohio exit polls in 2004 mirrored the sentiment of the country as a whole, that Iraq was not the main issue for them and that Iraq was going poorly. I showed that this time around, a number of states that went Republican in 2004, elected democrats in 2006. I demonstrated that exit polls showed that the Iraq War was the top priority this time around.
I saw and read the same articles, exit polls, etc. after the 2004 election. A poll showing that the American public thought the war is going poorly is not the same as whether the American public supports the Bush administration on Iraq in 2004.

Exit polls showing that Morality was the #1 issue does not necessarilly mean that it was the #1 issue. In addition, morality for many voters includes Iraq. Issues like the "War On Terror" and the Economy, both overlap with Iraq for many voters.

This is not about the electoral college and Ohio being the state, that put Bush over the top. 2004 was a national election, and only a tiny fraction of the 122 million people took any of these exit polls. In addition, its not exactly clear clear what the information from the exit polls tell us, since so many of the issues overlap each other.


The fact remains, there was no other single issue in 2004 that was taking more US taxpayer dollars than Iraq. 2004 had the largest number of US troops killed and wounded in action since 1971. Iraq was the subject of several controversial films that did well at the box office. It receive more media coverage than any other political issue in 2004.

War is such a costly and controversial issue for any country and there has yet to ever be a US election during a war that was not in some way a referendum on the war and the current administrations conduct of that war.

The 2004 elections showed that the majority of the American public still supported the war and administration policy on the war. If that was not the case, you would have seen what happened this past week, back in 2004. If anything, not seeing a war as the main issue would only be evidence that the public supported it and the administration rather than opposed it. Your doing very well, if the public does not see something as costly and controversial as a war as being the #1 issue.

Analyze it how you want, but historically elections during war have always in some way been a referendum on the war. I think its rather easy to see that the majority of people in November 2004 generally still supported the Iraq war given the strong victory that Bush and Republicans had in 2004 and that 2 years later in November 2006 the majority is now against the war with the massive democratic victories in the House and Senate.
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Old 11-12-2006, 03:26 PM   #49
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Old 11-12-2006, 07:56 PM   #50
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it boggles the mind.
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Old 11-12-2006, 07:59 PM   #51
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it boggles the mind.
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Old 11-12-2006, 09:26 PM   #52
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I'm with Dread and Irvine.
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Old 11-12-2006, 10:02 PM   #53
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You spin me right round, baby right round. Like a record baby....
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Old 11-12-2006, 10:07 PM   #54
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WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Democrats, who won control of the U.S. Congress, said on Sunday they will push for a phased withdrawal of American troops from Iraq to begin in four to six months, but the White House cautioned against fixing timetables.

“First order of business is to change the direction of Iraq policy,” said Sen. Carl Levin, a Michigan Democrat who is expected to be chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee in the new Congress.

Democrats will press President George W. Bush’s administration to tell the Iraqi government that U.S. presence was “not open-ended, and that, as a matter of fact, we need to begin a phased redeployment of forces from Iraq in four to six months,” Levin said on ABC’s “This Week” program.
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyid=2006-11-12T170830Z_01_N20203713_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ-USA-1.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

The Democrats aren't instilling any confidence that they are strong on defence by floating things like this, coupled with the Scowcroftian report by James Baker which will be pushing for a withdrawl Bin Laden may be completely vindicated when he declares the US to be a paper tiger who ran away from Beirut and Somalia and would never be able to fight Allah's side
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Old 11-12-2006, 11:23 PM   #55
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Old 11-12-2006, 11:29 PM   #56
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http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyid=2006-11-12T170830Z_01_N20203713_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ-USA-1.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

The Democrats aren't instilling any confidence that they are strong on defence by floating things like this, coupled with the Scowcroftian report by James Baker which will be pushing for a withdrawl Bin Laden may be completely vindicated when he declares the US to be a paper tiger who ran away from Beirut and Somalia and would never be able to fight Allah's side
And indefinite stay with no results does instill confidence? Come on people...
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Old 11-13-2006, 07:21 PM   #57
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And indefinite stay with no results does instill confidence? Come on people...
Are you a pinko? Quitter.... I bet you cut and ran on the playground.
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Old 11-13-2006, 07:34 PM   #58
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Old 11-13-2006, 09:03 PM   #59
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We must stay until the job is done!

How long is that?

We don't know!

Do you guys have an estimate?

You're trying to embolden the enemy!

Is there a set plan in place to ensure this place is ready for our withdrawal at some point in the future? You don't have to say when if you don't want to.

We'll stand down as they stand up.

Riiiiight, quite a plan. How's that working out? D'you mind if I ask the generals?

.......... Cut and run!! You're trying to cut and run!!!
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Old 11-13-2006, 09:09 PM   #60
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The plan is to blame the Iraqis for not stepping up and doing the job. This way the neo-cons save face and someone else takes the blame.
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