Thatcher and Hillary - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-11-2008, 10:24 PM   #1
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 12:09 PM
Thatcher and Hillary

An odd, but at times insightful column from the conservative English writer (ex-editor of the Daily Telegraph) Charles Moore.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m.../12/do1202.xml


Quote:
Less educated women, according to polls, have seen how she dealt with "abusive treatment" and, from their own experiences, sympathised. I can't help wondering, too, if there was not an element of race atavism in some of the working-class white vote for Hillary. Seeing a black man being rude to a white woman still touches a nerve.
"Seeing a black man being rude to a white woman still touches a nerve" - Jeepers.

I think, on balance, he's wrong here, but US commentators are so sensitive about the issue of race that even the most right wing wouldn't dare to advance such a theory (even if they thought it were true).

Finishes with the surprising conclusion:-

Quote:
"In Britain today, there is still a popular musical (Billy Elliot) which features a song calling for Mrs Thatcher's death. If you look on the anti-Hillary websites in America, you see a venom that is pretty much unrelated to the facts. It certainly is enough to justify tears.

On the whole, Mrs Clinton is less good at dealing with these things than Mrs Thatcher. She sometime seems, as Henry Kissinger said of Nixon, to be "lost in a wilderness of his own resentments". She does not have the burning conviction that allows her to rise above the latest attack.

But both do share something which comes not only with the territory of politics, but with their sex - a tenacious courage that their blustering male opponents surprisingly often lack."


(Incidentally, why is Lady Margaret Thatcher always 'Thatcher', but Hillary Rodham Clinton always 'Hillary'?)
__________________

__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 01-11-2008, 10:39 PM   #2
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 05:09 AM
"But both do share something which comes not only with the territory of politics, but with their sex - a tenacious courage that their blustering male opponents surprisingly often lack."


Diamond's going to hate this...
__________________

__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 01-11-2008, 10:42 PM   #3
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
"But both do share something which comes not only with the territory of politics, but with their sex - a tenacious courage that their blustering male opponents surprisingly often lack."


Diamond's going to hate this...
Well, Charles Moore is probably one of the most rightwing mainstream commentators in the UK.

I think it just goes to show, once again, that even the most right wing in Europe, by the standards of the US, is a moderate centrist, or at most a mild conservative.
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 01-11-2008, 10:43 PM   #4
Vocal parasite
 
Axver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: 1853
Posts: 151,054
Local Time: 10:09 PM
Re: Thatcher and Hillary

Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
(Incidentally, why is Lady Margaret Thatcher always 'Thatcher', but Hillary Rodham Clinton always 'Hillary'?)
I think it's just because everybody thinks of Bill when they hear "Clinton". I know I do. I even think of him when the town of Clinton in South Otago, New Zealand is discussed! So it's easier to refer to her as Hillary. I imagine she may increasingly be "Clinton" if she becomes President.
__________________
"Mediocrity is never so dangerous as when it is dressed up as sincerity." - Søren Kierkegaard

Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

U2gigs: The most comprehensive U2 setlist database!
Gig pictures | Blog
Axver is online now  
Old 01-11-2008, 11:58 PM   #5
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,297
Local Time: 06:09 AM
Actually Hillary has branded herself as Hillary on purpose in order to make it seem like she is an entity independent of her husband. So in that sense I don't think we can fault the media.
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 01-12-2008, 12:04 AM   #6
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe, Az USA
Posts: 12,856
Local Time: 04:09 AM
Hillary won't ever amount to nothing more than a pimple on Lady Thacther's arse.

dbs
__________________
diamond is offline  
Old 01-12-2008, 03:15 AM   #7
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 05:09 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


Well, Charles Moore is probably one of the most rightwing mainstream commentators in the UK.

I think it just goes to show, once again, that even the most right wing in Europe, by the standards of the US, is a moderate centrist, or at most a mild conservative.

Quote:
Hillary won't ever amount to nothing more than a pimple on Lady Thacther's arse.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 01-12-2008, 03:16 AM   #8
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 05:09 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Hillary won't ever amount to nothing more than a pimple on Lady Thacther's arse.

dbs
You never fail me.

Thank you!!!
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 01-12-2008, 04:25 AM   #9
Vocal parasite
 
Axver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: 1853
Posts: 151,054
Local Time: 10:09 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Hillary won't ever amount to nothing more than a pimple on Lady Thacther's arse.

dbs
Bus stop ratbag
Ha ha, charade you are
You fucked up old hag
Ha ha, charade you are
You radiate cold shafts of broken glass
You're nearly a good laugh
Almost worth a quick grin
You like the feel of steel
You're hot stuff with a hatpin
And good fun with a handgun
You're nearly a laugh
You're nearly a laugh
But you're really a cry


Yeah, Hillary's already amounted to more than that "bus stop ratbag".
__________________
"Mediocrity is never so dangerous as when it is dressed up as sincerity." - Søren Kierkegaard

Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

U2gigs: The most comprehensive U2 setlist database!
Gig pictures | Blog
Axver is online now  
Old 01-12-2008, 05:38 AM   #10
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
"Seeing a black man being rude to a white woman still touches a nerve" - Jeepers.

I think, on balance, he's wrong here, but US commentators are so sensitive about the issue of race that even the most right wing wouldn't dare to advance such a theory (even if they thought it were true).
"A black man being rude to a white woman" strikes my ear as a strange racial leitmotif to come up with. Needless to say, replace that with "makes sexual advances towards" (though completely irrelevant to Obama and Clinton, obviously) and then you do have a long-established, grotesquely blood-drenched fixture of the American white racist imagination. Then there's the racist stereotype of the "uppity" black man which, yes, can and does create problems for black men who fail to seem "nice" and "non-threatening" enough--perhaps it was really that he was getting at. But to specifically finger "a black man being rude to a white woman" as a long-established American racist fixation in its own right strikes my ear as odd; perhaps that's just me. I also really didn't get the impression myself that Obama's uncharacteristically poor-form "You're likeable enough, Hillary" moment got all that much coverage that it likely played much of a role in NH. She probably touched a much deeper nerve herself last week with her cringe-inducingly ill-considered manner of responding to Obama's implicit I'm-MLK,-you're-the-Washington-Establishment analogy by suggesting that MLK (read: Obama) couldn't have gotten anything done without (white) President LBJ's (read: Clinton's) help.

Don't have time to address the Thatcher/Clinton comparison right now but I'll come back to this later.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 01-12-2008, 05:54 AM   #11
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 07:09 AM
While I thought that the MLK/Kennedy/Johnson comparison was astonishly inept in its execution, I just thought it was a continuation of the poetry and prose analogy. MLK and Kennedy being the poets/visionaries, Johnson being the political pragmatist who could work the deals, could write the prose.
__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 01-13-2008, 11:46 PM   #12
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 12:09 PM
^ Yeah, I get that both of their analogies were part of the broader ongoing rhetorical battle between the two of them, but the way she handled her response in that round was unbelievably thoughtless. She could've said "Let me explain what I meant by 'false hope'," she could've turned the analogy into an inclusive one by explaining how the expansiveness of hope and the tedium of political process are interdependent, she could've said any number of things really, but inserting herself directly into the terms of that analogy as is was just stupid. Granted, the reporter put her in a tight spot to begin with by selectively quoting that part of Obama's speech to her and demanding a response, but then that's usually how such gaffes come about and a candidate's got to have a savvy grasp of the multiple levels speech works on so as to be ready for that sort of thing.
Quote:
a venom that is pretty much unrelated to the facts
Looks like perhaps we now have a couple examples of that going in here?

Well, in general I agree with Mr. Moore: there's really very little in common between the two, beyond the often-eyebrow-raisingly personal and shrill nature of the negative responses to them; Hillary's a much more guarded and reserved persona than Thatcher. (Which actually, if one wanted to talk female politicians whom one really could sensibly compare to LBJ, Thatcher's not a bad choice--two famously iron-willed people who were certainly capable of turning on the charm on occasion, but more often chose to relentlessly pummel their adversaries into submission through sheer overwhelming force of personality instead.) The point about tenacity has something to it too--I do tend to see Hillary as someone who's unafraid to make tough choices that will inevitably piss some people off. (Ironically, Bill Clinton had the reputation of being, despite his gift for 'connecting' with people and his quick-on-the-draw speaking smarts--both weak points for Hillary--someone who also 'needed to be liked' too much, to a degree that often undercut what one might otherwise expect to be his strong powers of persuasion.) I do think Moore may have overlooked some other possible dimensions of certain factors he was considering--the tendency of younger women to find it easy to feel contempt for older ones, for example; and it's not clear to me how fully he grasps that the 'can't have it both ways' problem straitjackets women as well--but on the whole, I think his comparisons made sense. Of course, hopefully it goes without saying that anyone who regards Thatcher as the only acceptable template for what type of persona a female head of state should have (not saying he does) is full of it.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 01-14-2008, 03:27 AM   #13
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Kieran McConville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Auto Dafoe
Posts: 9,600
Local Time: 09:09 PM
Of course in other ways, Thatcher was a very different situation. I gather he was an industrialist or something, but publicly her husband was entirely passive. Also she was established as an opposition leader for years before 1979, and that of course is the thing. A presidential system is entirely different. Hillary Clinton in a British context might have become prime minister 20 years ago. Or never. It's just hard to tell.

All of which I realise is off-topic. Heh.
__________________
Kieran McConville is offline  
Old 01-14-2008, 07:34 AM   #14
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
DrTeeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Q continuum
Posts: 4,770
Local Time: 12:09 PM

There are probably lots of other politicians you could better compare Clinton to, but most of those would be male and I guess there's still this tendency to compare female politicians to other women.
__________________
DrTeeth is offline  
Old 01-16-2008, 08:11 AM   #15
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 11:09 AM
diamond, I know you don't like Hillary.........
__________________

__________________
verte76 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com