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Old 04-21-2005, 10:18 PM   #31
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Originally posted by melon


I judge states on the basis of how they vote on gay issues. Like those 11+ states that voted for "Defense of Marriage" amendments. Even "liberal" old Oregon registered around 60%, didn't it?

Pathetic. And if Angela Harlem wasn't being sarcastic, the misanthrope in me would be inclined to agree with her statement.

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I'm sure all the pro-gay activists, gay and straight, who fought those laws in those states (even though they lost), as well as their supporters and families and friends, really appreciate your support.
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Old 04-22-2005, 04:18 AM   #32
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Back on track, ALL stereotyping aside.......


Is there a LOGICAL reason you would not want a child placed into a homosexual household?
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Old 04-22-2005, 04:20 AM   #33
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
Is there a LOGICAL reason you would not want a child placed into a homosexual household?
A very good question to pose, as I'm curious about that very same thing myself.

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Old 04-22-2005, 05:09 AM   #34
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Originally posted by U2Bama
Irvine, I think 80sU2_Is_The_Best has a point here, and you helped make it. Yes, you ARE "joking," but can you imagine if someone came on here and made a bunch of stereotypical joke/observations about any protected group? I dont think the FYM woul be so tolerant of such behavior.

~U2Alabama

the Texas state legislature has passed laws based on a bunch of stereotypical joke/observations. "protected" group? what group would that be? certainly not gay people, as they're being actively assaulted.

Melon has a point -- in a representative democracy, you get the government you deserve. it's also not a secret that Texas is a very conservative state, especially in regards to privacy/sexuality issues with archaic laws like sodomy laws that haven't been removed from the books until 2003. there's more than enough evidence to support claims that Texas -- operating as a state, not individual Texans -- actively seeks to create and incubate an anti-gay environment. i don't see the difference, then, between people talking about how "america" does this and "the US" does that, when they are talking about foreign policy. what they are talking about is how a nation acts in the world, not the individual actions of american citizens.

i find criticism of Texas perfectly acceptable, and with stuff like this, often humor is one effective means of criticism (you know, mock the devil ...), but you are right that it is not fair to mock individual Texans, which i don't think anyone did.
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Old 04-22-2005, 05:09 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Back on track, ALL stereotyping aside.......


Is there a LOGICAL reason you would not want a child placed into a homosexual household?
I believe one argument put forward once (in here) was that children ideally need influence from a male and female, as each gender typically offers something the other doesn't. Buuuuuuut that opens the single parent can of worms which I find repulsive as single parents are some of the strongest and most resiliant people I know. They are undervalued and what they achieve is so often thankless. But I am sidetracking.
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Old 04-22-2005, 05:57 AM   #36
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Originally posted by Irvine511
but you are right that it is not fair to mock individual Texans, which i don't think anyone did.
So if someone made a stereotypical remark about gays, blacks, or women, that would be alright in here because why?

I think there is way to much stereotyping of people in general.
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Old 04-22-2005, 06:44 AM   #37
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Originally posted by Irvine511

i find criticism of Texas perfectly acceptable
What you said wasn't exactly criticism, Irvine. You said that all decent people in Texas lived in Austin. While that covers my sister and her family, it sure knocks the rest of my family out of the "decent" category.

And it wasn't a joke, Irvine. At least admit that. You really blieve that Austin is the greatest city in Texas because it is the most liberal. You look down on other cities because they are more conservative. That's pretty ironic, because you accuse those of us who think homosexuality is wrong of looking down upon homosexuals.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
but you are right that it is not fair to mock individual Texans, which i don't think anyone did.
Oh, so because you were speaking about a large group of Texans, rather than singling someone out, it's okay? I see.

Would you like it if I said:

Gays wear dog collars and march down public streets simulating sexual acts with whips and chains.

Is that okay, Irvine? I didn't single anyone out.
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Old 04-22-2005, 06:49 AM   #38
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Old 04-22-2005, 07:08 AM   #39
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


What you said wasn't exactly criticism, Irvine. You said that all decent people in Texas lived in Austin. While that covers my sister and her family, it sure knocks the rest of my family out of the "decent" category.

And it wasn't a joke, Irvine. At least admit that. You really blieve that Austin is the greatest city in Texas because it is the most liberal. You look down on other cities because they are more conservative. That's pretty ironic, because you accuse those of us who think homosexuality is wrong of looking down upon homosexuals.



Oh, so because you were speaking about a large group of Texans, rather than singling someone out, it's okay? I see.

Would you like it if I said:

Gays wear dog collars and march down public streets simulating sexual acts with whips and chains.

Is that okay, Irvine? I didn't single anyone out.


goodness.

i used the word "cool kids" -- if that isn't flip and joking, i don't know what is. i didn't say decent people, i said "cool" people, so stop putting words in my mouth, especially when the words in my mouth weren't very serious to begin with.

i have been to several cities in Texas, and Austin is my favorite. i also said i liked San Antonio -- and i hardly need to "admit" anything, as if you're capable of reading my thoughts.

there is, however, much truth to the liberalness of a city and its desirability as a place to live for what's known as the "creative class" -- people from all over the world who are highly educated and work in innovative industries. and in fact, we can say that gay people have almost literally saved America's cities from total ruin -- gay men, in particular, are terrific urban citizens, as they choose to live in cities and support the local arts, museums, book stores, craft stores, and cafes that create what's known as culture that you're not going to get from the box-y strip malls that line most interestates. to me, this makes a place much more deisreable to live, and it seemed to me that Austin has more of this than the other cities i've visited in Texas.

do i look down on other cities? hmmmm ... i wouldn't choose to live anywhere other than near a major urban center or college town, but i don't go around calling other places "immoral" or "sinful" or insist that God didn't make other cities in Texas devoid of culture.

and if you can't see the difference between Texans and the behavior of Texas, the state, much like i am an American who disagrees with much of what America, the country, does, then it's kind of pointless to have any sort of nuanced conversation.
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Old 04-22-2005, 07:13 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


So if someone made a stereotypical remark about gays, blacks, or women, that would be alright in here because why?

I think there is way to much stereotyping of people in general.


agreed about stereotyping. i think earlier comments, meant to be light, are being taken way too seriously.

but we are comparing apples to oranges.

states make decisions and then act upon those decisions. whether it is to raise taxes, build a road, extend marriage equality, or cut funding from public schools.

groups of people -- jews, blacks, hispanics, rich white men -- do not have such a decision-making apparatus like a congress to make such decisions.

it is perfectly fair to criticize the actions of a state like Texas, and because we're smart people who see nuance know that the decisions made by Texas are not reflective of all Texas.

broaden it. America attacked Iraq. that is something America, the state, decided to do, and that decision can be fairly criticized. Americans who supported that decison through election can be fairly criticized. but, again, because we are intelligent people who can keep more than one thought in our heads at the same time, we can make criticisms and it should be implicitly understood that Americans, or Texans, do not all agree.
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Old 04-22-2005, 07:22 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




goodness.

i used the word "cool kids" -- if that isn't flip and joking, i don't know what is. i didn't say decent people, i said "cool" people, so stop putting words in my mouth, especially when the words in my mouth weren't very serious to begin with.

i have been to several cities in Texas, and Austin is my favorite. i also said i liked San Antonio -- and i hardly need to "admit" anything, as if you're capable of reading my thoughts.
What are you talking about? Someone said "there may be decent people" in Texas, and you said "they all seem to live in Austin". What does that have to do with "cool kids"?

As for the other matter, I can't read minds, but I know from other conversations with you how you look at people who don't agree with you on the homosexuality issue; You look at us as hateful people who fuel hateful acts such as beating up gay people.
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Old 04-22-2005, 07:32 AM   #42
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


What are you talking about? Someone said "there may be decent people" in Texas, and you said "they all seem to live in Austin". What does that have to do with "cool kids"?

As for the other matter, I can't read minds, but I know from other conversations with you how you look at people who don't agree with you on the homosexuality issue; You look at us as hateful people who fuel hateful acts such as beating up gay people.

i'll say it one last time: homosexuality isn't an "issue;" the treatment of homosexuals is. but that's for another thread.

please go back and re-read -- i clearly said "all cool kids" are in Austin. if you're going to bring up minor points, you'd at least better be accurate.

i don't view you as hateful, i view you as contributing to a climate that breeds hate. your statements on homosexuality demonize gay people as abnormal, freaks of nature, perhaps even dangerous. at best, these statements bolster homophobes in their desire to continue discriminating against gays. at worst, they embolden gay bashers to continue their violence on the streets. you have every right to say whatever you want, but you better believe that i see it is my obligation to combat that speech.

why?

because the 16 year old gay kid in high school who's heard the "gay" taunt/slur his whole life needs to know that there's nothing wrong with him. that he's as worthy and worthwhile as his straight peers. that he shouldn't have to hate himself.

what i see as the #1 problem in the gay community is self-loathing. and your comments, whether intended or not, are at the root of this problem.
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Old 04-22-2005, 07:34 AM   #43
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We've established that stereotyping of any kind does not make for a stimulating debate. Irvine explained his intentions and clearly did not mean a number of his comments to be taken seriously. Dreadsox has made an attempt to stick to the matter at hand.

Now, let us please continue in that direction.

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Old 04-22-2005, 07:53 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Back on track, ALL stereotyping aside.......


Is there a LOGICAL reason you would not want a child placed into a homosexual household?
The argument I've seen is that it doesn't promote a "normal" family, and that the children would realize that their parents were different from their friends' parents and the children in the gay families would somehow be affected. While I guess that it's true, they would be affected, in this logic we'd also have to prevent:

- single parents (as Angela pointed out)
- interracial couples
- divorced parents (where children are switching houses)
- foster parents

...all of which are out of the "norm". So I guess that's not really a logical reason. Anyone else?
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Old 04-22-2005, 07:58 AM   #45
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There is no logical reason.

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