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Old 01-26-2005, 09:50 AM   #16
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Using Mexico City and Appalachia as examples operates under the assumption that "poverty=crime." No, not all poor people are criminals, and we see that every day. But, conversely, a lot of criminals suffer from poverty; not all poor people are criminals, but a lot of criminals are poor and desperate. It is on such poverty and desperation that Al Qaeda feeds on. If we ignore this, then I believe we will miss a key tool in truly preventing terrorism.

Melon
This is what I was trying to say, that NO poverty does not cause terrorism or why aren't all poor people, or at least all poor cultures, terrorists? The terrorism that threatens the world today is caused by the beliefs of some Muslim fundamentalists, and that is the root of the problem.
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Old 01-26-2005, 09:55 AM   #17
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The terrorism that threatens the world today is caused by the beliefs of some Muslim fundamentalists, and that is the root of the problem.
But if the governments they lived in were stable enough to provide secular education (or, at least, mainstream religious education), then the leadership would fail. Flat out.

We will never be able to eliminate Muslim fundamentalism. Period. You can kill people, but you cannot kill ideas. But you can create an environment where the fundamentalists are no longer the majority and are seen as nothing more than a bunch of fringe lunatics that no one takes seriously anymore.

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Old 01-26-2005, 11:01 AM   #18
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i dont remember an epidemic of terrorism springing forward when the usa was in the depths of the great depreesion.

envy and hate cause terrorism
not economics.

db9
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Old 01-26-2005, 11:52 AM   #19
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We will never be able to eliminate Muslim fundamentalism. Period. You can kill people, but you cannot kill ideas.
True.

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But if the governments they lived in were stable enough to provide secular education (or, at least, mainstream religious education), then the leadership would fail. Flat out.


But you can create an environment where the fundamentalists are no longer the majority and are seen as nothing more than a bunch of fringe lunatics that no one takes seriously anymore.

Melon
Hey, now you sound just like W! That's his plan!
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Old 01-26-2005, 11:56 AM   #20
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Hey, now you sound just like W! That's his plan!

from my perspective, i have no problems with democracy in the Middle East; i do, however, have HUGE problems with the way W is going about realizing democracy in the Middle East.

what you speak of is not his plan, but W's goal. the goal is a good one. it's the plan that's completely FUBAR, imho.
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Old 01-26-2005, 12:43 PM   #21
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Democracy is not part of their culture, they don't want it and it's not our place to force it on them, but W's means or yours. That's one reason they hate us, it's arrogant and insulting really, we think our way is the best way and they want it, but they don't want to be like us!
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Old 01-26-2005, 12:45 PM   #22
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Hey, now you sound just like W! That's his plan!
I frankly doubt his sincerity, really. Bush cannot say "no" to the Christian fundamentalists in our midst, so why should I really believe he has a commitment to secularism? If I earnestly could trust a word he said, my attitude to this war on terrorism might be very different.

Words are meaningless, if we are constantly looking for Orwellian motivations behind them. Is "freedom" really about "freedom," or is it just about opening their economic markets for our consumption (i.e., Iraqi oil)?

Melon
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Old 01-26-2005, 01:01 PM   #23
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Originally posted by diamond
i dont remember an epidemic of terrorism springing forward when the usa was in the depths of the great depreesion.

envy and hate cause terrorism
not economics.

db9
The Great Depression had plenty of organized crime. Think Al Capone and John Dillinger.

"Envy and hate" are effects, not causes. People don't "envy and hate" for no reason.

Melon
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Old 01-26-2005, 07:04 PM   #24
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Great points Melon
and want my "It's great to have you back".

I agree w's goals are great it's the means that suck
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Old 01-26-2005, 07:36 PM   #25
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Capone made money off prohibition which was overturned in 1933. And one thing historians often are struck by is the lack of overwhelming violence during the Depression. This is not to say that there was a complete lack of violence because there were many cases, but it was not at the level to be expected. Americans proved to be very resilient and even hopeful for quite awhile. Believe me, American reactions could have been much worse.
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Old 01-27-2005, 04:16 AM   #26
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The Great Depression had plenty of organized crime. Think Al Capone and John Dillinger.


Melon
True, and the 'hood' has gangs and shootouts just like the days of prohibition. So poverty DOES certainly breed crime, but there is a difference between that and terrorism. Those poor who steal only want personal financial gain for themselves, while terrorists don't want money or anything for themselves and are even willing to die, they just want victory for their cause and defeat to the infidel!
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Old 01-27-2005, 06:56 AM   #27
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Capone made money off prohibition which was overturned in 1933. And one thing historians often are struck by is the lack of overwhelming violence during the Depression. This is not to say that there was a complete lack of violence because there were many cases, but it was not at the level to be expected. Americans proved to be very resilient and even hopeful for quite awhile. Believe me, American reactions could have been much worse.
That's another thing I want to bring up, that poverty not only breeds crime it breeds revolution. Hatred and resentment of the class system, and hopelessness of poverty led directly to the French and Russian Revolutions where the poor masses rose up to overthrow- and kill off- the rich ruling class. But again, this is not the same thing as terrorism. In crime, the criminals only want money for their own gain. In revolution, a group of people fight to change the system for (what they think at the time is but doesn't always work out to be) the good of the country. Terrorism is a completely different phenomenon, and I don't have to list the details, you all know how it works. All I'm saying is it's not the same thing as the violence in crime or revolution, both of which ARE direct results of poverty.

I believe that those whose plan it is to make the terrorists happy by giving them money and democracy (be it W or the liberals who hate him) are barking up the wrong tree because they don't want it, that's making them like us, and they don't want to be like us! Some of you think they're jealous of us and that's why they do it but it's not like that because jealousy means you envy what someone has and want it for yourself and that's not the case here.
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Old 01-27-2005, 08:53 AM   #28
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I wish I knew what Bush was trying to do. I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that he's applied his "Democracy for all!" principles with any kind of consistent or meaningful basis. And thank God for that, because we'd all be dead.

It appears that he's just talking up democracy because it sounds good. The only accomplishments he talks about in this regard are Iraq and Afghanistan, although of course he gave different reasons for military action against those countries at the time. I can't think of any other actions we've taken to promote democracy, and Bush certainly doesn't give any to help me out.

All of this is kind of a roundabout way for me to say that I don't think his "democracy promotion" agenda has much to do with stopping terrorism. And even if it did, he's kinda barking up the wrong tree; think the ETA or the IRA, both organizations that operate in democratic societies. Or remember the OKC bombing.
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Old 01-27-2005, 09:13 AM   #29
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Originally posted by U2Kitten
Those poor who steal only want personal financial gain for themselves, while terrorists don't want money or anything for themselves and are even willing to die, they just want victory for their cause and defeat to the infidel!
Again, in the scheme of "cause and effect," why do they have their "cause" and why do they want "defeat to the infidel"?

There is no such thing as unabated "pure evil." Even the most malicious of people think they are doing "good." So what is the problem and why are they using "terrorism" as the "solution"?

It is said that most people are complacent, as long as they are well fed and have their needs met. Guaranteed, if the U.S. became a dictatorship and had rampant unemployment, we would devolve into similar violence.

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Old 01-27-2005, 09:23 AM   #30
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It is said that most people are complacent, as long as they are well fed and have their needs met. Guaranteed, if the U.S. became a dictatorship and had rampant unemployment, we would devolve into similar violence.

Melon
No, we wouldn't. We might resort to crime to feed ourselves, or a revolution to oust the government, but we'd never become suicide bombers against some overseas nation we didn't like because we wanted them to die for not being like us. Not gonna happen. Never.
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