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Old 07-15-2005, 07:52 AM   #16
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Originally posted by sallycinnamon78
Experts, my arse. More like idiots who should learn the facts and report responsibly without attempting to cause as much hysteria. and promote as much hatred, as possible. Those particular idiots are merely twisting the facts to suit their political beliefs.
Exactly!
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Old 07-17-2005, 05:23 PM   #17
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People and especially governments have always underestimated terrorists. Terrorists are always fringe dwellers in a society. They arent taught hate but they are receptive to it. The sort of mindset that would accept those ideologies is already in place. Someone like Osama Bin Laden just gives them the fix or the inclusion they were looking for already. Governments just assume that the sort of person who becomes a terrorist is governed by a barbaric nature (and they are) but the problem goes much deeper. Terrorists (especially higher level ones) are smart, disciplined, and extraordinarily patient. Most governments dont realize who they are dealing with. They vastly underestimate the level of intelligence it takes to be a terrorist (in purely intellectual terms). Im not saying they are saints just that they arent stupid. The Al Qaida waited almost 10 years to strike the US again...most vengeance seeking people would just go buy a gun on the black market and start shooting. They used Americas own infrastructure against it. Terrorists are not stupid and the sooner Governments accept those dimensions the more successful they will be in defeating them.
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Old 07-17-2005, 05:27 PM   #18
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Originally posted by peacepandemic
People and especially governments have always underestimated terrorists. Terrorists are always fringe dwellers in a society. They arent taught hate but they are receptive to it. The sort of mindset that would accept those ideologies is already in place. Someone like Osama Bin Laden just gives them the fix or the inclusion they were looking for already. Governments just assume that the sort of person who becomes a terrorist is governed by a barbaric nature (and they are) but the problem goes much deeper. Terrorists (especially higher level ones) are smart, disciplined, and extraordinarily patient. Most governments dont realize who they are dealing with. They vastly underestimate the level of intelligence it takes to be a terrorist (in purely intellectual terms). Im not saying they are saints just that they arent stupid. The Al Qaida waited almost 10 years to strike the US again...most vengeance seeking people would just go buy a gun on the black market and start shooting. They used Americas own infrastructure against it. Terrorists are not stupid and the sooner Governments accept those dimensions the more successful they will be in defeating them.
All good points, I would not be surprised if Al Queda study the operations of other terrorist organisations in recent history like the IRA.
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Old 07-31-2005, 02:45 PM   #19
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlo...539851,00.html
Terror suspect gives first account of London attack

· Rome captive 'says Iraq sparked plot'
· Security chiefs fear new wave of assaults
· Huge hunt for bomb mastermind
· Death gangs were linked, say police

by Tony Thompson, Mark Townsend, Martin Bright and Barbara McMahon Rome
Sunday July 31, 2005
The Observer

One of the men accused of taking part in the failed terror attacks in London on 21 July has claimed the bomb plot was directly inspired by Britain's involvement in the Iraq war.

In a remarkable insight into the motives behind the alleged would-be bombers, Hussain Osman, arrested in Rome on Friday, has revealed how the suspects watched hours of TV footage showing grief-stricken Iraqi widows and children alongside images of civilians killed in the conflict. He is alleged to have told prosecutors that after watching the footage: 'There was a feeling of hatred and a conviction that it was necessary to give a signal - to do something.'

But some of the Italian media reports told a conflicting story. Some reports quoted Osman as saying: 'I hardly know anything. They only gave me a rucksack to carry on the tube in London. We wanted to stage an attack, but only as a show. Who gave me the explosive? I don't know. I didn't know him. I don't remember. We didn't want to kill, we just wanted to scare people.'

Milan's Corriere della Sera newspaper said Osman first told authorities he did not know what was in the backpack he took on the London underground, then changed his version, saying he was told the attackers were only supposed to carry out 'demonstrative' attacks. But the Rome daily Il Messaggero said the suspect told investigators: 'We were supposed to blow ourselves up.'

Osman allegedly said: 'More than praying we discussed work, politics, the war in Iraq ... we always had new films of the war in Iraq ... more than anything else those in which you could see Iraqi women and children who had been killed by US and UK soldiers.'

If these reports turn out to be true, they will provide valuable insights into the workings of the alleged terrorist cells. The revelations come as police in the UK begin hunting an al-Qaeda mastermind believed to be behind the recruitment and training of both sets of London bombers.

The prospect of a UK mastermind controlling the cells raises fears that other units may be active in Britain. Despite the arrest of all five men wanted in connection with the failed attacks, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Sir Ian Blair, warned last night of the risk of further bomb attacks.

According to the reports, Hussain claimed the men did not talk about al-Qaeda or Osama bin Laden. 'We had no contacts with the organisation of bin Laden. We knew it existed - we accessed its programmes through the internet - but nothing directly,' he is reported to have claimed, adding that the bombings of 7 July took them by surprise: 'We never had any contact with the Pakistanis.'

However, the bombs that devastated London that day were a signal that they could go into action. 'Our boss taught us how to make explosives out of fertilisers,' he is reported to have said, claiming the men put them into rucksacks and used timers.

Security sources fear that at least one senior figure in the global terror organisation is based in the UK. He may have taken part in a whitewater rafting trip used as a bonding session for several of the suicide bombers in north Wales in early June.

Sweeping new security measures are to be introduced on Britain's road and rail networks this week, including highway patrol officers on the M25 who will check bridges for bombs.

Senior officers are particularly concerned there could be a third attack on Thursday, two weeks after the last attempt. One officer said: 'When you look at the history of terrorist attacks and of al-Qaeda in particular, there is a pattern of repeated attacks on the same targets. They hit the World Trade Centre twice. They attacked the embassies in Egypt twice. If anything the level of security around public transport on Thursday will be even higher than last.'

Rather than the two cells being linked directly, investigators are now focusing on the idea that the men responsible for the 7 July bombs and those behind the failed attacks on 21 July may have been recruited and directed by the same person.

'If you look at the structure of al-Qaeda, what you basically have is a pyramid,' a security source told The Observer. 'If you see the two groups of bombers as two separate teams of footsoldiers on the very bottom, then there is a possibility they are linked by the command structure in the level above. This is the level we are trying to identify and track down.'

The hunt has been given fresh impetus by this new intelligence which suggests that, rather than being manufactured between them, the explosives given to the bombers were handed over by people so far unidentified.

Italian officials are preparing extradition proceedings against Osman. They say he was born in Ethiopia, not Somalia, and may have used fake documents to obtain British citizenship.

The Interior Minister, Giuseppe Pisanu, told his parliament yesterday that Osman had tried to evade capture with the help of contacts among Italy's Ethiopian and Eritrean immigrant communities, after fleeing London on the Eurostar train.

The suspect appeared before magistrates yesterday. His lawyer, Antonietta Sonnessa, objected to his extradition and said it could take up to two months for him to be returned to London.

It has also emerged that Britain's Somali community 'shopped' the first alleged bomber, Hassan Omar, who was found in Birmingham last Wednesday.
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Old 07-31-2005, 04:07 PM   #20
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Funny how they are telling the world that Iraq sparked the plot and yet not one individual of Iraqi decent has been implicated in the plot.
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Old 07-31-2005, 05:34 PM   #21
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Funny how they are telling the world that Iraq sparked the plot and yet not one individual of Iraqi decent has been implicated in the plot.
Governments always lie to their people. They perpetually manipulate the media and the citizenry through the use of need based relationships. The media needs the government to give it the coverage that will sell the articles and papers that will keep them profitable and the people need the "government" to act as the figurehead of their will. Unfortunately, most of the individuals elected into public service are more interested in using the public to serve their agendas than they are in serving the public.

Few institutions in the world with exception of attorney/physician-client privilege have less transparency than any state government. And no institution has more stringent prerequisites for employment than the offices created to defend state governments. One look at the CIA, NSA, and State Department Job Applications and the reality becomes that the government doesnt so much employ you as rather it inducts and indoctrinates you.

The fundamental failure of "democracy" in the Western world can be almost solely attributed to the fact that people have not leveraged their power against the government enough that they can issue any truly meaningful statement to those in power. They have not used legislation to institute enough profound repercussions for government officials when they overstep the will of the people. The US regularly makes war without true popular consent. It regularly raises taxes or increases government expenditures without true popular consent and it will continue to do so well past the judgment day because the people have lost their voice to the politicians ultimately.

Most politicians either come from priviliged backgrounds or have worked their way into the upper class both educationally and financially. Naturally, they bring the attitudes, assumed entitlements, and sociopolitical beliefs inherent in their upbringing into their legislation. Ours is not an inclusive democracy.

As for the terrorists, terrorist groups have always existed to play the wildcard in politically divided societies. If you think of societies as a rubber band, when any society moves to far to the right, a terrorist group springs up to attempt to force a reversion to the left. The Al Qaida don't hate Americans. They hate American attitudes and beliefs. They believe in a theocratic world view for the most part whereas most Americans are ultimately ruled by more secular concerns such as money, love, career success, and general enjoyment of life. The Al Qaida base their existence on an idealistic (to them) religious philosophy and not just simply a way of life. This obviously untenable and uncorrectable difference between the two opposing mindsets will never be resolved. To the Al Qaida, capitalism and freedom from religious law is a violation of what they consider the traditional world order. They literally believe Americans deserve to burn in hell just as most religious fanatics do.

The sad tragedy of this aside from the loss of life is that ultimately neither side is right. America (and many in the rest of the world) affect the posture that violence against the state by terrorists is horrific in the same breath that we declare war on them. Worse yet, their societies (if they can be called such) are based on principles of teamwork, discipline, communal sharing, and fidelity to their beliefs. These are values which in a normal non violent non terrorist society should be praised and ultimately the west discarded those notions to the dumpster almost from the beginning of its path towards the civilization and those values have never truly been a part of the makeup of the United States political ideology.

As for me, I cant have any more sympathy for a president who orders the murder of countless lives in a foreign country so he can have his political fantasyland than I can have for a terrorist who flies a plane into a skyscraper and kills 3000 people so he can have niche for his religious beliefs in the world. Ideologically, the two just arent far enough apart for me to pick a side.
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Old 07-31-2005, 05:43 PM   #22
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Peacepandemic, I'm having trouble disagreeing with much of anything you said. It's a cynical view I agree with.
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Old 07-31-2005, 08:15 PM   #23
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It actually sounds like these guys were being played by Al-queda.
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Old 07-31-2005, 08:32 PM   #24
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It actually sounds like these guys were being played by Al-queda.
Well isn't that the point of al-queda? They play on the weakness of spirit, the weakness of ideals, the weakness of those they recruit.
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Old 08-01-2005, 08:10 AM   #25
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there are 57 terror camps in your "friendly" nations.

most of the terrorists ( for other nations) had their OFFICIAL headquarters in LONDON...terrorists for us and rebels for western media...give asylum to all terrorists...

UK refuse to extradict the terrorists because they have committed no CRIME on british soil.

terrorist from BRITIAN go and BOMB Tel aviv...

UK and America give a LOT of MONEY and weapons to its "friendly" nations and when these money land up in London Subway as Bombs...there is PANIC and fear.

Kill a brazilian because he looks asian...

How can u defeat terrorism by double standards
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Old 08-01-2005, 02:20 PM   #26
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In the late 80s, the US government was financing Osama Bin Laden and the Mujahadeen ONLY because they US was afraid of the spread of that uber dangerous ideology known as communism. Yes, since the Government found that it could not outlaw those dangerous things known as books, they decided instead to finance pseudo terrorist rebel groups instead.

I firmly believe that only an idiot goes to war against a political ideology (i.e. communism, socialism, etc). In that lens the vast majority of world leaders are fairly stupid. The only situation where this view has been truly tested was in Nazi Germany but ultimately the parallels between Nazi Germany and the Al Qaida are quite sound. Both are organized around dogmatic and charismatic leaders and both "states" are primarily concerned with advancement of a personal moral idealism.

The solution to the problem then was not to start to WWII but rather to assassinate Hitler and part of the solution to the problem now is to assasinate Bin Laden. Unfortunately, in cases like this, you cant just kill a person like that in plain daylight because if you make martyr of them you increase their power over their adherents infinite fold. Those people just needed to disappear one night like Jimmy Hoffa.
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Old 08-31-2005, 06:02 PM   #27
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Kill a brazilian because he looks asian...
The guy who was shot by police in London, Mendez? He doesn't look even vaguely Asian. Speaking as an British-Asian woman.


On a related tangent... I found this article interesting: http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/rob00204.htm
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