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Old 07-29-2002, 06:34 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar
I have something to add to this.
If you say the fetus is alive therefore it is bad to kill it then what about bacteria? Bacteria is alive but people see no wrong in killing it. I know it might seem wierd compairing bacteria to a fetus but hey, a life is a life. Isn't it?
A life is a life, I guess, but bacteria will never grow into a being capable of thought. If you kill a bacteria you have not aborted what would be the life of a sentient creature. When you kill a fetus, you are aborting what would be the life of a human being.
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Old 07-29-2002, 10:52 AM   #62
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1 in 3 prengnancies end. 1 in 3 sperm and egg combinations do not make it to full life. Mother nature sure is cruel for all those abortions she causes.
Millions of people under the age of 60 die of natural causes every year. Mother nature sure is cruel for all those murders she causes.


I don't get it. Are you trying to say that because a lot of pregnancies naturally end in the death of the baby/fetus/embryo, that it justifies intentionally ending those prenancies? How is that different from saying that because a lot of people die of heart attacks, it's ok to kill people?

Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar
If you say the fetus is alive therefore it is bad to kill it then what about bacteria? Bacteria is alive but people see no wrong in killing it. I know it might seem wierd compairing bacteria to a fetus but hey, a life is a life. Isn't it?
I don't believe "a life is a life." I don't equate bacteria, or dandelions, with humans. I don't mind if you kill bacteria. Please don't kill humans.

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Originally posted by Danospano
1.6 million abortions? Hmmm....You know that if those babies HAD been born you'd be complaining about how they were lazy, leches living off wel-fare that was coming out of your wallet.
So are you saying that this justifies abortions? Since people would complain about the babies after they were born, we should kill them? Well, shouldn't we kill everyone on welfare, so we don't have to hear people complain about them? And telemarketers...people complain about telemarketers, so let's kill them too.

If you're not saying that this justifies abortions, why are saying it? To remind us that people complain about "leeches living off welfare?" I think we all know that people complain about that.
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Old 07-29-2002, 11:11 AM   #63
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Ok so i am going to throw my rant into this discussion

Nobody can justify killing a person- killing a living human is wrong even if it is a growing baby in the womb.

Most ppl find abortion wrong in my opinion I could never have abortion. Ever.

But we can't judge people who have had abortions because it is their life & everyday people will do things that you are against- people will do what they think is right even if others find it wrong-

Im sure no religion justifies judging people

Ravenstar you cant compare bacteria with a baby imo

I agree with joyfulgirl
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There will never be agreement on this issue
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Old 07-29-2002, 12:10 PM   #64
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Christians, at least, are not to judge other people: after all, none of us (except, we believe, Jesus Christ) are blameless, and we don't know the circumstances that lead to people to act the way they do.

But we can still say - and should say - when we believe an act to be immoral.

Particularly if you think a foetus is a human life, you can't really say that the woman getting the abortion can do what she wants "because it's her life." The issue involves not only her life, but the life of the unborn child.
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Old 07-29-2002, 01:14 PM   #65
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Originally posted by Achtung Bubba
Christians, at least, are not to judge other people: after all, none of us (except, we believe, Jesus Christ) are blameless, and we don't know the circumstances that lead to people to act the way they do.

But we can still say - and should say - when we believe an act to be immoral.

Particularly if you think a foetus is a human life, you can't really say that the woman getting the abortion can do what she wants "because it's her life." The issue involves not only her life, but the life of the unborn child.
Hmm, i belive that abortion is immoral to but i think it is more immorel to make it illegal. It is better to make the choice easyer to keep the child. more free healthcare for children, Free day care centre`s for working single parents and young mothers who are going to school.

I think it is immorel to forbid abortion on relgion reasons because there is seperation between relegion and goverment.And if we like it or not, there are people who do not belive in god and they have the right to make there own choices.
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Old 07-29-2002, 01:58 PM   #66
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I think it is immorel to forbid abortion on relgion reasons because there is seperation between relegion and goverment.And if we like it or not, there are people who do not belive in god and they have the right to make there own choices.
I disagree for a variety of reasons:

First, the opposition to abortion is not necessarily tied to a specific religious belief. One can simply believe that a foetus is a human life, and that the murder of human life should be illegal.

Most laws would violate church-state separation, as you define it, to some degree, because one of the reasons people believe that murder and prostitution (for example) is wrong is their faith.

I believe that your definition of church-state separation is a bit too broad. I believe it keeps the government from organizing or other influencing a "state church" or vice versa. I don't think it makes illegal laws whose bases are religious beliefs. In particular, I think local governments have a particular right to pass so-called "blue laws" - laws that acknowledge predominant local faiths by easing parking restrictions during church services or limit the sale of alcohol on Sundays.

And there are - and SHOULD BE - limits to how far an individual can make his own choice on what is right and wrong. One can imagine a person may actually believe murder is okay, but the government is still right to make murder illegal and impose that restriction against his belief.
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Old 07-30-2002, 03:24 AM   #67
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Originally posted by Spiral_Staircase

Millions of people under the age of 60 die of natural causes every year. Mother nature sure is cruel for all those murders she causes.
I don't get it. Are you trying to say that because a lot of pregnancies naturally end in the death of the baby/fetus/embryo, that it justifies intentionally ending those prenancies? How is that different from saying that because a lot of people die of heart attacks, it's ok to kill people?

Absolutely not. The statement, I agree sounded like that is what I meant. But I didn't. Really, I do think mother nature is quite cruel for naturally aborting so many pregnancies, but that is not the issue we are discussing. I will admit I am probably closer to pro choice than anti abortion, BUT I do think many many instances of abortion are plain morally wrong. We can all list specific examples of where we go into some kind of grey area, like rape, or if the fetus is particularly disabled etc things change. For someone such as yourself, you may not see it as any different in influencing a woman's decision to abort the baby. I'm not sure where I stand on that so I wont comment.

I have difficulty in retaining respect for people who mix their opinion with judgment. Achtung Bubba summed it up very well.

Christians, at least, are not to judge other people: after all, none of us (except, we believe, Jesus Christ) are blameless, and we don't know the circumstances that lead to people to act the way they do.
But we can still say - and should say - when we believe an act to be immoral.


It is a distinction I believe everyone should follow, regardless of religion. An opinion should always be welcome, while witholding judgement.

By the way, the rest of this post is not directed at you Spiral_Staircase, I'm not implying you are here to judge or that you have in your posts.
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Old 07-30-2002, 09:53 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba


Particularly if you think a foetus is a human life, you can't really say that the woman getting the abortion can do what she wants "because it's her life." The issue involves not only her life, but the life of the unborn child.

AB- i like ur wee views around FYM!

But ok most abortions are done until about 3/4 months into pregnancy- its illegal if an abortion is done any later than that isnt it??? (im not too sure but i think so)

The woman can do what she wants because it IS her life- but really the foetus is living because of the mother- she is keeping it alive and warm- if this baby was to be removed from the womb it would never ever survive anyway. So can it be viewed as murder if the child is only alive because of the mother???
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Old 07-30-2002, 09:56 AM   #69
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Gotta think about this some more...
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Old 07-30-2002, 10:06 AM   #70
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Angela H.- yeah, I just misunderstood what you were saying. Thanks for the post...
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Old 07-30-2002, 10:10 AM   #71
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I find it fascinating that the language used to describe people on both sides of the issue has shifted to pro-choice and anti-abortion. The connotation is definitely slanted. Anytime you use the word "anti" it has a negative connotion. I wonder why it can't be consistent for fairness sake. Pro-abortion, anti-abortion. If you're going to say "pro-choice" then I think the other side should be given the label that they choose which would be "pro-life". Just an observation.
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Old 07-30-2002, 10:16 AM   #72
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I see your point, Sula, but I don't think the pro-choicers would want to use the term pro-life to describe people against abortion, since I'm sure they all consider themselves pro-life. On the other hand, they wouldn't want to call themselves pro-abortionists because that would imply that they wanted all fetuses aborted.

Similarly, pro-lifers probably consider themselves pro-choice... ah, I've gone cross-eyed!

Semantics... maybe we need to come up with new, neutral names.

P.S.: When you think about it, of all 4, only "anti-abortion" is an accurate description.
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Old 07-30-2002, 10:19 AM   #73
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Oh ok i have just thought about this- i dunno how to word it so if it makes no sense BLARG! ignore me lol!

So as AB said earlier about this woman having an abortion being viewed as murder because she is ending anohter human life

Ok but this baby could NEVER survive on its own when tis aborted EVER!

BUT if the woman has a caesarean at 8 months pregnancy(how one earth do you spell that word?!) and the baby dies is THAT viewed as murder??

If she is 3 months pregnant and asks the person carrying out the abortion to remove the baby from the womb and not harm it just lift it out like a caesarean then the baby will die- is this viewed as murder?- because the baby has been lifted out of the womb and dies- its nobodys fault that it dies tho because she hasnt suffocated it in the womb or had it sucked up a tube- it has just died

When is it murder???

and who is the murderer here?- ppl are syaing it is the woman killing the baby BUT a pregnant woman might be able to remvoe any guilt from themselves because they could say that they didnt kil the baby but the person who carried out the abortion is!


Oh its all so complicated! Hope i made SOME sense lol
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Old 07-30-2002, 10:44 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
I find it fascinating that the language used to describe people on both sides of the issue has shifted to pro-choice and anti-abortion. The connotation is definitely slanted. Anytime you use the word "anti" it has a negative connotion. I wonder why it can't be consistent for fairness sake. Pro-abortion, anti-abortion. If you're going to say "pro-choice" then I think the other side should be given the label that they choose which would be "pro-life". Just an observation.
But Klodomir makes a good point...simply because I'm pro-choice does not necessarily make me pro-abortion or anti-life. I'm actually very much against abortion--I simply believe that it should remain legal and in the hands of medical professionals so that we do not return to the days of botched back-alley abortions in which the lives of mothers were lost as well.

I don't think I could ever have an abortion. But I know that people are in all kinds of horrible situations, and I (as a limp-wristed liberal, I suppose) don't think it's an option that can or should be removed from people.

Of course, if there were more efforts to educate people about contraception and abstinence (NOT one or the other--BOTH), then we wouldn't have nearly as many abortions...but that's a topic for another day.
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Old 07-30-2002, 10:48 AM   #75
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Well but just because someone falls into the pro-life camp aka "anti-abortion" does not mean they oppose all abortions as in the case of medical emergencies. So I still would argue that it is a biased terminology and one that favors one side over the other.
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