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Old 02-11-2002, 01:58 PM   #31
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MissZooropa,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I can see where you're coming from. I know you probably don't want to get into a big argument on this, and neither do I. But I found your response very interesting. You said that you believe that abortion is murder, but that you also believe that a woman should have the right to make that choice. I've never been pregnant, so I'm not claiming to have special insight into what a pregnant woman would feel when faced with this situation. I'm just following through to some possible scenarios and how a particular belief system (in this case, yours) would play out.
Some women don't ever realize they are pregnant, and others are able to hide it, until they go into labor. What if this happens to a woman who, for all the reasons you listed above, doesn't want to keep the child. And she ends up giving birth at home, or in a bathroom somewhere. So she throws the newborn baby in the trash, where it dies. Is this murder acceptable? Should it be legal? What if a woman realizes 6 months or a year after giving birth that she should have had an abortion, that she can't afford to care for the baby. Can she kill it now? I *really* don't mean for this to sound harsh or antagonistic (but I'm sure it does). I think that you would agree that all of these situations involve murder, and you've stated that abortion falls into that category as well. So where would you draw the line?
I realize this question is directed toward MissZooropa, but others please feel free to respond. Again, I hope you understand what I'm saying. I'm *not* saying this is an easy choice to make. But I do think there is a clear, however difficult, right choice.
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Old 02-11-2002, 02:14 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by MissZooropa:
First a question, was it really 6 000 000 ENDED pregnancies? The figure seems to be the total number of pregnancies, delivered baby or not. I compared it to the Swedish statistics and the numbers can't be that different. If this in fact IS the number of ENDED pregnancies, I would just out of curiosity like to have the number of total pregnancies that should be like an unreal number of them.
It's the number of pregnancies that concluded in 1997 ( birth, abortion, adoption, etc.)
National Center for Health Statistics

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Old 02-11-2002, 02:22 PM   #33
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Spiral Staircase: I'm not really sure what you mean. But I'm pro abortion and because of all the situations you listed I do think abortion is right, or whatever you want to call it.

I thought I made it pretty clear that I was for abortion. BUT at the same time I see it as one kind of murder or rather killing when I see to how I would look at it if I ended up in the situation. I can't say what I would do if I got pregnant now, I DON't want a child, I wouldn't be able to take care of it and I would never be able to give it up if I went through the pregnancy. Probably I would do an abortion, but it would be with a troubled heart, just as troubled as if I decided to go on with the pregnancy.

You see where I am at? I can't draw the line for myself and even less for others. I guess that's where I am. Everything is not black or white. And even if I was sure about MY decision I can't decide or judge everyone else. I would never look down on anyone who decides to go through an abortion, I'm sure they have enough of guilt as it is, they are judging themselves, I guess.

Don't know if I made myself any clearer, my real point I guess is that this is a question that isn't black or white and becomes even more grey if you actuallly end up in the situation.

[This message has been edited by MissZooropa (edited 02-11-2002).]
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Old 02-11-2002, 04:04 PM   #34
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Oki, Spiral I see what you mean. I'm afraid I don't have an answer. I can't say exactly when I think it's not ok to "murder" any longer. I don't think it's ok to do it when it's born, ok? As far as that I'm sure. I also do think that it's legal to abort way to far into the pregnancy. I don't know the rules in US But here I think it's ok until week 24 or something.

But I said that I would consider it murder if I did it, in my own mind, my own thoughts about it, concerning my decision in the hypothetic situation. That doesn't mean that I judge others for "murder" if they did it, I would only judge myself.

I'm sorry I can't give you exact thoughts here, I guess it only shows how difficult this is. I know I'm talking against myself, because I know that somewhere is the line when I think it's ok to do an abortion and I don't know WHY or WHERE. In my logic, life is life, but still it isn't in the fact, the actual situation..... confusing, I know....
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Old 02-11-2002, 04:04 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marko:
I wanted to say something like that - I belive that abortion is murder, and if it is murder than it's totaly black and white...

on the other hand, if you don't think it's murder than it's all gray to you, and I think that you're wrong. After only 25 days baby's brain is already working, sending electric waves... I belive that life begins when the soul is concived, and not the body, and soul comes to life with the first second...
don't tell me that I'm a man and I don't think objectively. Go up and read my earlier post (my first in this thread) and you'll see that I'm not trying to be holier than you...
and KhanadaRhodes don't start talking about rapes and incest - it's the reason of 0,001% of all abortions so it's no argument...
True, Marko, true. I've always hated it when people say "if you're not a woman, you wouldn't understand". Well, I may not be able to understand what it's like to be pregnant, but I it's not like I haven't had problems myself. And the way I see it, abortion is murder. And there is never any justification for murder.
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Old 02-11-2002, 04:08 PM   #36
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rape does not have to end in abortion. My best friend and her precious son are living proof of that.
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Old 02-11-2002, 04:27 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
rape does not have to end in abortion. My best friend and her precious son are living proof of that.
Sula I don't know way, it's totaly beyond me, but lately i realy love you...

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Old 02-12-2002, 03:19 AM   #38
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What an absolutely horrifying figure, how monstruous.

I am pro-life myself, but I realise that not everything is black and white, sometimes hard choices and difficulties arise, THATS why I say people (COUPLES in particular, it takes two to tango) who choose to go through with an abortion should have to pay a healthy fine that increases by the abortion. It would make people think, as well help prevent such, at best, controversial actions.

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Old 02-12-2002, 03:20 AM   #39
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80's I dont know those women, I dont know their reasons. Therefore I dont believe I am in a position to hold any kind of judgement on them. You cannot disagree with something like this until you know the reasons why. Thats my belief anyway. You also said yourself the final Judgement will come later...which is another thing. I am not going to assume that role and think its my 'right' or place to begin to understand why every single one of those women did what they did.
Im not sure of my stance on whether it is murder. It may not be right or just, but I am not going to be presumptuous enough to leap in and make a decision on something that in actuality I know nothing about, that being it is different for everyone, and I know nothing about any of those individuals in your statistic. It is an absolutely terrifying decision.
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Old 02-12-2002, 03:35 AM   #40
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MissZooropa, what I'm asking can be looked at as an equation:

1. Abortion = An Acceptable Choice
You have stated that you believe individuals should have the right to choose an abortion.

2. Abortion = Murder
You have stated that you equate abortion with murder.

Would you then follow this equation to it's logical next point?:

3. If Abortion = Murder, and Abortion = Acceptable Choice, then Murder = An Acceptable Choice

Basically, do you think murder should always be an acceptable choice for someone in an extremely difficult situation (such as having an unwanted child)? If not, where do you draw the line?

[This message has been edited by Spiral_Staircase (edited 02-11-2002).]
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Old 02-12-2002, 03:54 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spiral_Staircase:
MissZooropa, what I'm asking can be looked at as an equation:

1. Abortion = An Acceptable Choice
You have stated that you believe individuals should have the right to choose an abortion.

2. Abortion = Murder
You have stated that you equate abortion with murder.

Would you then follow this equation to it's logical next point?:

3. If Abortion = Murder, and Abortion = Acceptable Choice, then Murder = An Acceptable Choice

Basically, do you think murder should always be an acceptable choice for someone in an extremely difficult situation (such as having an unwanted child)? If not, where do you draw the line?

[This message has been edited by Spiral_Staircase (edited 02-11-2002).]
I wanted to say something like that - I belive that abortion is murder, and if it is murder than it's totaly black and white...

on the other hand, if you don't think it's murder than it's all gray to you, and I think that you're wrong. After only 25 days baby's brain is already working, sending electric waves... I belive that life begins when the soul is concived, and not the body, and soul comes to life with the first second...
don't tell me that I'm a man and I don't think objectively. Go up and read my earlier post (my first in this thread) and you'll see that I'm not trying to be holier than you...

and KhanadaRhodes don't start talking about rapes and incest - it's the reason of 0,001% of all abortions so it's no argument...

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Old 02-12-2002, 06:09 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spiral_Staircase:
MissZooropa, what I'm asking can be looked at as an equation:

1. Abortion = An Acceptable Choice
You have stated that you believe individuals should have the right to choose an abortion.

2. Abortion = Murder
You have stated that you equate abortion with murder.

Would you then follow this equation to it's logical next point?:

3. If Abortion = Murder, and Abortion = Acceptable Choice, then Murder = An Acceptable Choice

Basically, do you think murder should always be an acceptable choice for someone in an extremely difficult situation (such as having an unwanted child)? If not, where do you draw the line?
I thought the line was drawn at abortion ...

If Terrorist = Murderer, and Terrorist = Muslim, then Muslim = Murderer (same logic as above)

mur·der (mūrdr)
n.
The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

So if abortions are legal then they are not murder.

Not that that makes abortion moral or anything.
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Old 02-12-2002, 08:03 AM   #43
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That is a shocking statistic, and the Swedish stats are even worse! But in my mind, whether you're pro-life or pro-choice, the real question we should be asking ourselves is why are all these women getting pregnant in the first place?

I'm actually to a certain extent pro-choice, but it has to be an informed choice, and it looks to me as if abortion is far too easy an option these days.
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Old 02-12-2002, 08:14 AM   #44
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Well i've always believed the abortion is a woman's choice and her right.
It's her body - she makes her own decisions.
Just like she'll have to live with it for the rest of her life.
Women who do abortions shouldn't be questioned or judged by anyone.


Having said that, i do think abortion is the ABSOLUTE last option - before keeping the baby, adoption etc... and of course every woman needs to think ahead and practice safe sex if she's not ready for a child yet.
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Old 02-12-2002, 09:17 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem:

Im not sure of my stance on whether it is murder. It may not be right or just, but I am not going to be presumptuous enough to leap in and make a decision on something that in actuality I know nothing about, that being it is different for everyone, and I know nothing about any of those individuals in your statistic. It is an absolutely terrifying decision.
I don't have to know any of these women to believe that abortion is murder. To me, a woman's frame of mind/state of being has no impact at all on whether abortion is murder. I believe that life bgins at conception. Therefore, any time you purposefully end a life in the womb, it is murder. That's not judging the women who have an abortion. That's judging the action that far too many women seem to be making. If something is terribly wrong with society, those who know it is wrong have the duty to speak out against it.

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