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Old 06-27-2007, 02:03 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
My point is that because you are far from sinless, just like all of us, should you be allowed to judge innocence in these matters? Forget government judging. Can anyone on this earth judge or condemn?
yes, otherwise we would be in complete chaos.

so yes we have to exercise judgement while not being hypocrites.
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Old 06-27-2007, 02:09 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by LikeNoOneBefore
(I apologize for being late into the discussion.)

Truly, I believe a life sentence in prison is a much better alternative to the death penalty. A woman a few years back named Karla Faye Tucker was executed by lethal injection. Though I was much younger, I can remember an uproar from the community stemming because the woman had accepted Christ while in prison, showed visible signs of complete reform, and died after making a statement about how she would join the Lord in Heaven. So this just adds to another argument. Should one who is showing complete signs of change be released from their death sentence?


Now for what is presently happening. diamond, I don't understand what side of the argument you are on. I cannot tell if you are for or against the death penalty, but the support you used in your last post seems to contribute to phillyfan's thesis. If we, just like the accusers (the Pharaises, in that example), are all sinful, then how can we place judgement on someone like the woman who committed adultry? Really, in reference to my story from above, this woman, just as the adultress would later, completely reformed herself, and yet still was executed. Is this fair? Adultry, like murder, is not a good thing and should be "sinned no more."



I truly hope I understood everyone's argument. I have a bit of a headache, so I apologize if anything I said was weird.
Yes, it was fair.

Ms Tucker completed her sentence and is better off in the after life-that she started her repentance process in this life.

If you begin to repent like Tookie did or the axe murderer Ms Tucker did, it is a good thing, your penalty doesn't become optional.

Mercy cannot rob Justice, but God will be more merciful to a repentant soul.


My belief is that one is much better in the sight of God if he goes out of this life repenting w a humble heart.

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Old 06-27-2007, 05:06 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


I wouldn't agree, though I favour the death penalty, justice must be tempered with mercy.
This would have to be at the top of my list for the best of Oxymorons that i have ever heard.
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Old 06-27-2007, 06:57 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


where is it in God's law 'not to punish muderers'?
I don't follow.

We're told to follow the laws of the land that we live in and if there are corrupt laws in the country you live in, those people who establish corrupt laws will be dealt with accordingly, in God's own time.

We as citizens of our indivual countries should do our best to make a difference legally.

dbs
Matthew 5:38-42. The death penalty only continues that cycle of violence. What ever happened to "We must not become a monster in order to defeat a monster"

Jesus taught COMPASSION and FORGIVENESS. He rejected violence, oppression, and alienation. Jesus forgives the murders for their sins. Why can't you? I think your ethic of the sanctity of human life is inconsistent. A life is a life is a life. Whatever you do to those prisoners, you do to Jesus. THAT is quite explicit.

Don't you think we are bigger than our greatest mistake?

p.s. legally Jesus didn't pay taxes.
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Old 06-27-2007, 07:48 AM   #50
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He was executed last night

McALESTER, Okla. (AP) - A terminally ill Oklahoma death row inmate was executed today after his final appeal for a reprieve was denied by the US Supreme Court.

A corrections department spokesman says Jimmy Dale Bland died at 6:19 pm after he was injected with a lethal dose of chemicals at the Oklahoma State Penitentiary.

Bland was a twice-convicted killer who shot his 62-year-old employer in the back of the head eleven years ago. He's the second person executed by the state this year.

Bland's attorney had asked the US Supreme Court for the execution to be blocked because the 49-year-old was terminally ill with advanced lung cancer and doctors said he had as little as six months to live.

The nation's highest court rejected that request earlier today.
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Old 06-27-2007, 09:03 AM   #51
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Still waiting...

Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
i never will make the connection how anti death penalty ppl try and equate a innocent baby's life that made no choices, with a convicted murderer who made choices.
i do not think a muderer is a sacred human being, a new born baby is much more sacred of a being to most people, even you were at one time wanderer.
But this has no Biblical backing, just your own personal emotions...

Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

Murder =taking innocent life, what part of that don't you understand?

Who's really innocent?
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Old 06-27-2007, 09:09 AM   #52
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So that's it then. I wonder if those who wanted him executed so badly will ever realize what a hollow victory it was.

Growing up I was always pro-DP. I was a kid of course, and the pro-DP stance is easy (he murdered somebody, kill his *ss)...but as I grew older I came to a few conclusions.

Our legal system is incredibly subjective & biased. If person X commits a crime against person Y X's punishment will vary wildly depending on the class, race, or gender of X & Y, and I can't accept the DP as a sentence when whether it's used depends more on who the convict is than what he did.

I also don't think the DP has any place in a civilized society. I just can't see where an enlightened society allows government-sanctioned murder...and yes the DP is murder, whether you're for or against it that's what it is. Does anyone know what percentage of Western nations allow the DP and have it in common practice?

All that said I'm not sure I understand the outrage over this particular case. If you're anti-DP then condemn all executions; I truly don't get why this guy merited clemency based on his cancer. I definitely think killing him when he was already terminally ill was almost "childish", in a telling your boss "you can't fire me because I quit"kind of way, but honestly if anything isn't executing a young guy in perfect health MORE cruel?
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Old 06-27-2007, 09:19 AM   #53
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Nowhere in Europe has the DP legal except Belarus, New Zealand and Australia don't have it, most of South America doesn't have it except I think Brazil (maybe others?) but that is for war time traitors only.
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Old 06-27-2007, 09:29 AM   #54
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That's about what I figured...wasn't too sure about South America but I was pretty certain about Europe, NZ, and Australia. I'm thinking Canada doesn't have the DP either.
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Old 06-27-2007, 09:38 AM   #55
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Nope it does not, most Asian countries still have it, Japan, China, India etc as do the African states.....these are the governments the US has to compare itself to on the use of the death penalty, many of them not the best of governments either.
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Old 06-27-2007, 09:53 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by LJT
Nope it does not, most Asian countries still have it, Japan, China, India etc as do the African states.....these are the governments the US has to compare itself to on the use of the death penalty, many of them not the best of governments either.


just one thing that often gets lost -- some states execute lots of people (Texas) whereas in other states it is illegal. the federal government doesn't execute citizens, state governments do.
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Old 06-27-2007, 09:54 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by unico


Matthew 5:38-42. The death penalty only continues that cycle of violence. What ever happened to "We must not become a monster in order to defeat a monster"

Jesus taught COMPASSION and FORGIVENESS. He rejected violence, oppression, and alienation. Jesus forgives the murders for their sins. Why can't you? I think your ethic of the sanctity of human life is inconsistent. A life is a life is a life. Whatever you do to those prisoners, you do to Jesus. THAT is quite explicit.

Don't you think we are bigger than our greatest mistake?

p.s. legally Jesus didn't pay taxes.
Matthew 5:38-42
"38 You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; 40 and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; 41 and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you."

Yes Christ did teach compassion and forgiveness paticularly to those that applied themselves to his teachings, and for those that didn't aceppt His teachings we are taught to pray for those that use us, or don't get it. (His teachings or sacrifice).


The scripture you cited doesn't say anything about not punishing murderers or blanket forgiveness, yet Christ will forgive whom He will forgive, that is up to Christ, but doesn't negate earthly punishment, nor the consequences of sin.

As a believer in Christ, I forgive all men for their sins and know that after this life God will forgive whom He will forgive through the merits of His Son's sacrifice (Christ's sacrifice), for those that applied themselves.

Matter of fact Christ taught repentance to many, and instructed His apostles to do the same.

I think your ethics and understanding of the purpose and sancity of human life may be different from mine, and that's ok, we see things differently is all.

Jesus told people to pay what is Ceaser's (earthly laws, taxes) to Ceaser and what is God's to God. (alms, charity, good works) to God.

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Old 06-27-2007, 09:58 AM   #58
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The death penalty has no room in a polite, civilized society, in my opinion.

That said, this is not a good case for arguing it, because essentially you are saying, this man is old and he is suffering and therefore we should not impose the death penalty on him. That is beside the point; the argument should be that our legal system is fraught with imperfections and that a substantial enough number of DP cases have been discounted using new forensic evidence and other methods to indicate that innocent people have been executed by the state. The fact this man had cancer and was frail is really immaterial in the end: if you are anti-death penalty, then the argument applies equally to him and a perfectly healthy, young man on death row.
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Old 06-27-2007, 10:18 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




just one thing that often gets lost -- some states execute lots of people (Texas) whereas in other states it is illegal. the federal government doesn't execute citizens, state governments do.
I know, it is just easier than listing every states...how many states is it legal in though? Most of the time America doesn't even appear as one country to me...I see very little of what actually holds the states together, and they act so independently of each other.
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Old 06-27-2007, 10:25 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by LJT


I know, it is just easier than listing every states...how many states is it legal in though? Most of the time America doesn't even appear as one country to me...I see very little of what actually holds the states together, and they act so independently of each other.
My home state (Connecticut) has the DP on the books but hasn't actually used it in I don't know how long. I think there's even a death row in CT prisons but in reality it's more like some sick purgatory than an actual death row. Now how's that for cruel & unusual...yeah you'll probably never actually get the DP but we'll leave you to rot on death row with it hanging over your head for 20 years.

I've since moved to Florida, which unlike CT kills lots of people

While it's true the US government doesn't execute, it does of course have the power to outlaw the DP...yet it chooses not to. So I think it's fair to make the statement "the US has the DP", but it's also fair for folk in no-DP states to point out that fact...kind of like saying "don't blame me, I'm from a blue state".
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