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Old 06-26-2007, 04:10 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i'd view murder as the deliberate taking of another's life. innocence or guilt don't mater much to me.

tell me, someone, how do Christians justify a pro-death penalty position?
Thank you! The amount of other Christians I know who support a pro-death penalty position sickens me. The Old Testament gave a list of sins that one could receive the death penalty for by stoning, which you probably know. You're probably also familiar with the New Testament story of the woman caught in adultery. The Pharisees dragged her before Jesus to try and catch him in a compromising situation. Would he follow the Mosaic law that he was supposed to follow as a "good Jew" or would he follow the Roman law that forbade the death penalty? We all know how the story went. He bent down, wrote something in the sand, (I would love to know what that was) and then stood up and said "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw the stone at her." The Bible says they slowly dropped their stones and left. Why? I think, it's because none of us are innocent if we believe The Bible. The Bible says sin is sin. No matter what it is, it separates us from God. God doesn't look at an adulterer or murderer any differently than a person that is a gossiper (also a sin) or a person that eats too much (gluttony is a sin too according to The Bible. Methinks, some Christians should remember that....) Anyway, I think Jesus was basically trying to say, that unless we literally have lived a perfect sin-free existence (which no one but Jesus has according to what I believe) we have no business putting ourself above a murderer or adulterer, etc. and punishing them in that way. Any sin deserves death according to The Bible. Without the sacrifice of Jesus, I deserve to die for lying to my mom about something like I did this morning as much as the man we're talking about here who committed murder. I don't see how a Christian could see this any other way.
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Old 06-26-2007, 04:16 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i'd view murder as the deliberate taking of another's life. innocence or guilt don't mater much to me.

tell me, someone, how do Christians justify a pro-death penalty position?
I've never been able to figure that one out myself. I suppose different communities are taught different things.

I think another question to ask is why some Christians are simply incapable of forgiving criminals. If you ask me, I think it is rather contradictory to support the death penalty and then recite the Our Father.
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Old 06-26-2007, 04:20 PM   #18
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This really is stupid. The guy has three types of cancer and has been going through chemo, which is a downright miserable existance. I'm surprised that a family that is so hungry for revenge would want to end his suffering from cancer. Living with the cancer would be a much more painful existance and to me it seems like this guy is already having some sort of punishment acted out on him.

I'm a bit surprised that this guy was allowed to undergo chemo. I wonder if the family fought that decision.

This is almost as bad as the law that's on the books that states that mentally ill prisoners can't be executed and every effort should be made to treat the prisoners so they can be executed. Makes perfect sense.
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Old 06-26-2007, 04:34 PM   #19
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murder is a legal term*

it is more like the unlawful taking of a life.


there are all kinds of examples of killing that are not murder.


this case is a very weak example for abolishing the death penalty

for half of my life I supported the death penalty

I no longer support it
in any instance



*eta
Quote:
murder n. the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way), and with no legal excuse or authority.

In those clear circumstances, this is first degree murder. By statute many states make killings in which there is torture, movement of the person (kidnapping) before the killing, as an incident to another crime (as during a hold-up or rape), and the death of a police officer or prison guard all first degree murders with or without premeditation, and with malice presumed. Second degree murder is such a killing without premeditation, as in the heat of passion or in a sudden quarrel or fight. Malice in second degree murder may be implied from a death due to the reckless lack of concern for the life others (such as firing a gun into a crowd, or bashing someone with any deadly weapon). Depending on the circumstances and state laws, murder in the first or second degree may be chargeable to a person who did not actually kill, but was involved in a crime with a partner who actually did the killing or someone died as the result of the crime. (Example: In a liquor store stick-up in which the clerk shoots back at the hold-up man and kills a bystander, the armed robber can be convicted of at least second degree murder. To be murder the victim must die within a year of the attack. Death of an unborn child who is "quick" (fetus is moving) can be murder, provided there was premeditation, malice, and no legal authority. Thus, abortion is not murder under the law. (Example: Jack Violent shoots his pregnant girlfriend, killing the fetus). Manslaughter, both voluntary and involuntary, lacks the element of malice aforethought. (See: manslaughter, first degree murder, second degree murder, homicide, malice aforethought, premeditation)
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Old 06-26-2007, 04:36 PM   #20
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and i guess a lot of us disagree with the modern interpretation/defintion of the word murder.

im not a huge supporter of the death penalty, but do think's it's warranted and necessary in some instances.

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Old 06-26-2007, 04:40 PM   #21
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This man's life is already withering away. To me it seems as though that they want to keep the responsibility for his death on their hands, just for the sake of revenge and hate. If he is going to die, why not let him die?


It reminds me of when I went to visit Kilmainham Gaol. The tour guide was telling about the history, and spoke of when prisoners were being executed. There was a man that was so ill, he couldn't even sit upright. So, the guards held him up against the chair so he could be executed.

I was sick to my stomach.
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Old 06-26-2007, 04:46 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


Murder =taking innocent life, what part of that don't you understand?

dbs
Does your religion command that only innocent life is sacred, otherwise it's open season?
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Old 06-26-2007, 04:54 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Does your religion command that only innocent life is sacred, otherwise it's open season?
Don't understand the premise, care to rearticulate the question?
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Old 06-26-2007, 04:55 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Does your religion command that only innocent life is sacred, otherwise it's open season?
I believe he was distinguishing between a person "found guilty" and therefore killed under a lawful sentence (executed).


In America most religious conservatives are good with this.
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Old 06-26-2007, 05:08 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


I believe he was distinguishing between a person "found guilty" and therefore killed under a lawful sentence (executed).

and in America most religious conservatives are good with this.
Actually this is the position of the LDS Church and mine as well:

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

So in essence if I were a Mormon in Switzerland where there is no death penalty, I would have to honor the law of that land. In the USA there is the death penalty and even though I don't relish that fact, I relunctantly support it, if I with my conscience so hate it so much, my church would counsel me to move or oppose it through legal means.

Make sense?

There are pro death penalty and anti death penalty Mormons in the USA.

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Old 06-26-2007, 05:19 PM   #26
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I know A_Wanderer did ask
Does your religion.....


but laws of countries or states should not be set up by religious dictates

no Shia law, or
Vatican law
or
SeaGull laws
for the general populace.

Please,

Quote:
We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
so you would honor and obey shia law.

Stone me now.

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Old 06-26-2007, 05:47 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


Actually this is the position of the LDS Church and mine as well:

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

So in essence if I were a Mormon in Switzerland where there is no death penalty, I would have to honor the law of that land. In the USA there is the death penalty and even though I don't relish that fact, I relunctantly support it, if I with my conscience so hate it so much, my church would counsel me to move or oppose it through legal means.

Make sense?

There are pro death penalty and anti death penalty Mormons in the USA.

dbs
so your church teaches you to put man's law above god's?
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Old 06-26-2007, 06:42 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


Don't understand the premise, care to rearticulate the question?
Many Christians seem to have an issue with abortion as well as euthanasia on the basis that it somehow violates the sanctity of life. A proportion of these Christians also support the use of capital punishment.

How is a human being who has probably commited a terrible crime have a life that is less sacred than a foetus or brain dead body?
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Old 06-26-2007, 07:47 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i'd view murder as the deliberate taking of another's life. innocence or guilt don't mater much to me.
That works from a pacifist standpoint, though ethically (not legally of course) you might run into problems trying to justify some killing in self-defense, putting up military resistance to an invasion, etc. by that logic. I think your first point(?) was a stronger one--that it's a given mistakes will be made in trying people for capital crimes and this is not an acceptable area to make mistakes with; therefore we should dispense with it altogether, "wrong in principle" or not.
Quote:
tell me, someone, how do Christians justify a pro-death penalty position?
I'm no expert here obviously, but most Christian pro-death-penalty arguments I've heard seem to rely crucially on Romans 13:4--that a ruler 'bears not the sword in vain' because he is 'the minister of God' and authorized to 'avenge' against evildoers. I suppose one response to that might be that in a representative democracy that's a moot point, since any citizen has authority to weigh in on such matters...on the other hand then you're endorsing people "trying to legislate their religious views."
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Old 06-26-2007, 10:34 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by unico


so your church teaches you to put man's law above god's?
where is it in God's law 'not to punish muderers'?
I don't follow.

We're told to follow the laws of the land that we live in and if there are corrupt laws in the country you live in, those people who establish corrupt laws will be dealt with accordingly, in God's own time.

We as citizens of our indivual countries should do our best to make a difference legally.

dbs
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