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Old 07-10-2005, 08:10 PM   #1
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Telegraph Opinion "Where is the Ghandi of Islam?"

A rather fine article that I think says some important things and gives room for thought.
Quote:

Yet there seems to me to be a radical disjunction between our heroic capacity to deal with the immediate effects of terrorism and our collective refusal to confront what lies behind it. The effects of this disjunction are, literally, fatal.

The Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, was in Singapore on Thursday, having helped London's successful Olympic bid. His stricken face showed his shock, and of course he condemned the attacks. Then he analysed them.

They were not, he said, attacks "against the mighty and the powerful", but against "working-class Londoners". Would they have been all right, one wondered, if they had been against the mighty and powerful, or if they had cleverly found a way of killing only middle-class Londoners?

Then Mr Livingstone said: "This is not an ideology or even a perverted faith." Why did he want to say that? How - if, as the authorities tell us, the attacks were carried out by Islamist extremists - could this be true?

The main spokesman for the Metropolitan Police on Thursday was Deputy Assistant Commissioner Brian Paddick. He also complained about attacks on "purely innocent members of the public", thereby making one think that there might be other people (police? soldiers? politicians?), who are not purely innocent and should have been attacked instead. Asked about the nature of the terrorists, Mr Paddick said: "Islam and terrorism don't go together."

It is true that the vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists, or involved in terrorism, and this needs to be said strongly if people assert otherwise. But if the Metropolitan Police really believe what Brian Paddick says, if they really, truly think that the words "Islam" and "terrorism" must not be linked, then we have little hope of catching the killers, of understanding how the terrorism works, or of preventing new atrocities.
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Old 07-10-2005, 08:22 PM   #2
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Re: Telegraph Opinion "Where is the Ghandi of Islam?"

Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
A rather fine article that I think says some important things and gives room for thought.link
This has been around some time, probably needs to be updated to include Bali, London, Madrid....

Islam and Terrorism ARE linked, but I wonder if things would be the way they are if the West hadn't carved up the Middle East to create Israel ?


In 1968 who assassinated Robert Kennedy?
(a) Abbe Hoffman
(b) Tiny Tim
(c) Charles Manson
(d) Muslim male extremist between the age of 17 and 40

In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred
by:
(a)Olga Corbutt
(b)Sitting Bull
(c)Arnold Schwartzeneger
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1979,the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
(a) Lost Norwegians
(b) Elvis
(c) A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
(a) John Dillinger
(b) The King of Sweden
(c) The Boy Scouts
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
(a) A pizza delivery boy
(b) Pee Wee Herman
(c) Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked, and a 70 year old
American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard by:
(a) The Smurfs
(b) Davy Jones
(c) The Little Mermaid
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver
was murdered by:
(a) Captain Kid
(b) Charles Lindberg
(c) Mother Teresa
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
(a) Scooby Doo
(b) The Tooth Fairy
(c) Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid with dynamite left over from
the train job.
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
(a) Richard Simmons
(b) Grandma Moses
(c) Michael Jordan
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
(a) Mr. Rogers
(b) Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
(c) The World Wrestling Federation to promote its next villain:
"Mustapha the Merciless"
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

iN 1999, The USS Cole was attacked and more than 15 American Sailors
were killed by:
(a) David Letterman
(b) Shaquille O'Neil
(c) The Cookie Monster
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 2001 Phillipene Missionaries Gracia and Martin Burnham were
kidnapped, held for over a year, and Martin subsequently killed by:
(a) Mr. Rogers
(b) Scooby Doo & Shaggy
(c) Ronald Reagan
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed and thousands
of people were killed by:
(a) Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck, and Elmer Fudd
(b) The Supreme Court of Florida
(c) Mr. Bean
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
(a)Enron
(b)The Lutheran Church
(c)The NFL
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
(a) Bonny and Clyde
(b) Captain Kangaroo
(c) Billy Graham
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

On July 4th 2002, 2 Innocent Airline Passengers Were Killed, And 3
Others Injured at the ticket counter of El Al Airlines in the LAX
International terminal by:
(a) Hulk Hogan after losing the WWF Title
(b) The cast of Monty Python
(c) Senator Lil' Tommy Daschle
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 41
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Old 07-10-2005, 08:29 PM   #3
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That list has been done before and although it does highlight the danger posed by Islamist terrorism people dismiss it on the basis of the sarcasm. I must say that the extremist element is not offended so much by the existence of Israel as it is by the continued existence of the Jewish people.

Melanie Phillips blog had a link to a good piece from The Times about the roots of Islamic extremism and the ideolgy behind it. Looking at these groups not as a monolithic religion but instead a reactionary movement is important. There is no way to defeat such an ideology by alienating the only people that could defeat it in the right environment.

Times piece
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Old 07-10-2005, 09:24 PM   #4
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There's been enough people assassinated over the years that you probably could create a list like that about every culture. That's solely why I dismiss it. One dead Israeli gets their name, photo, and sympathies broadcast on the nightly news. Twelve dead Palestinians get a number. That's it.

I'd say part of the problem is that the Cold War killed all the moderate voices in Islam, in the name of "anti-communism." Kemal Ataturk was fortunate enough to have secularized Turkey in the 1920s, because I'm quite sure he would have somehow, somewhere have been declared a "communist," deposed in a CIA coup, and then a cruel American-backed dictator would have taken power. But when it came to Iran, their elected PM was sacked in the 1950s, due to US/UK oil interests, and replaced by the unelected, but U.S. friendly, shah. After all, even Saddam Hussein was loved enough to warrant an in-person visit by Donald Rumsfeld in the early 1980s.

In other words, you can't spend the last 50 years of history beating down every moderate to liberal voice in the Middle East, and then, suddenly, expect to command them to become less "fanatical" at the drop of a hat. We reap what we sow.

Islam wasn't always fanatical. During the Crusades, Saladin was well noted for his religious tolerance and highly respected even by Christian Europe. And indeed, even up to the 20th century, Jews found themselves more comfortable living in Muslim-controlled territories than they did in Europe. I'd say the root of the fanaticism has partly to do with the rather messy creation of Israel at the whim of the UN and with no concern for existing landowners' property rights, coupled with CIA-backed coups of any Muslim politician deposed under the excuse of "anti-communism." Plus, rampant and high unemployment, coupled with dictatorial regimes that they can't depose themselves have probably made them quite unhappy.

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Old 07-11-2005, 09:46 AM   #5
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Anyone with enough hate for another group can make the same type of list. You could make it for WASPs, black, Jews, teachers, priests, dog owners, CEOs, politicians etc.

You could make a list just like this for serial killers. You know what you would find? You'd find out that the majority are white men with Christian backgrounds, but then if I made a 'link' between serial killers and Christianity you'd scream bashing. But many serial killers use scripture to justify the voices in their head. So would I be justified in making such a link just because that's what the numbers say? Absolutely not. So I challenge you to bring a little more to the conversation than a worn out, misconceived hate filled email forward.
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Old 07-11-2005, 10:10 AM   #6
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"Where is the Ghandi of Islam?"

Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
"Where is the Ghandi of Islam?"


slaughtered by extremist Israelis



if only the Palestinians were dealing with imperialist British.
A Ghandi would be sufficient.
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Old 07-11-2005, 10:17 AM   #7
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Re: Re: Telegraph Opinion "Where is the Ghandi of Islam?"

Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino




I wonder if things would be the way they are if the West hadn't carved up the Middle East


this is probably the biggest part of the problem
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Old 07-11-2005, 10:27 AM   #8
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Re: Re: Telegraph Opinion "Where is the Ghandi of Islam?"

Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino



In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
(a) Scooby Doo
(b) The Tooth Fairy
(c) Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid with dynamite left over from
the train job.
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40






the answer to the above question is:

Libyan leader Colonel Khadafi

he was enemy no. one during reagan/ bush.
hated as much as binladen is today.

Now, the Bush II administration is doing business with him. Explain that?







btw, whoever created that list is seriously messed up in the brain department
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Old 07-11-2005, 12:13 PM   #9
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Ah, what bigoted drivel. There's little, if anything, new in this article.

I agree that the Muslim community needs to take a harder line against the fundamentalists in their midst, but I feel the same about the Christian community.

I would suggest Bernard Lewis' "The Crisis of Islam" or John Esposito's "Islam: The Straight Path" if one is truly interested in the causes and solutions of terrorism. But reading up on Islam doesn't seem to be a priority for many.
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Old 07-11-2005, 12:47 PM   #10
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Well, there are many movements and many religions that could always use a "Gandhi." Islam, especially, could benefit, if not from one stellar leader/personality, then several spiritual leaders that help can combat fundamentalism.

The Atlantic Monthly has a good profile of Alli Goma, the grand mufti of Egypt...somebody that approaches the teachings of the Koran with much needed clarity and pragmatism.

Yes, the Egypt government is using him to blunt the extremist fundamentalists' recruitment drives in that country, but I think many other countries (Pakistan for one) can/should try the same approach.

A little snippet here:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200507/wilson
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Old 07-11-2005, 01:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by AvsGirl41
I agree that the Muslim community needs to take a harder line against the fundamentalists in their midst, but I feel the same about the Christian community.
to this, as well as BVS's post.

Those people are no more representative of the Muslim faith than people like Jerry Falwell are representative of the Christian faith.

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Old 07-11-2005, 02:00 PM   #12
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I agree with melon. When Ferdinand and Isabella kicked the Jews out of Spain in 1492, they were welcomed in the Ottoman Empire. The Sultan specifically ordered that they be welcomed anywhere in the Ottoman Empire, and there's a picture of Jewish people being personally welcomed to Istanbul by the Sultan. So Muslims are quite capable of tolerant, civilized behavior.
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Old 07-11-2005, 06:20 PM   #13
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I also wonder if perhaps more Muslims aren't speaking out because they're afraid of what the extremists could do to them or their families and friends? That could have something to do with it, too.

Angela
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Old 07-11-2005, 08:07 PM   #14
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It seems that people here are very much Arab-centric in their views of radical Islam: the 'root causes' are all from the Middle East, all post-WW2 and are all invariably the Wests fault in one way or another, this can be a dangerous oversight and one particular reason I think that racial profiling is not the way too go.

I would like too know what makes the article that I posted bigoted.
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Old 07-11-2005, 08:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
It seems that people here are very much Arab-centric in their views of radical Islam: the 'root causes' are all from the Middle East, all post-WW2 and are all invariably the Wests fault in one way or another, this can be a dangerous oversight and one particular reason I think that racial profiling is not the way too go.
The problem is that you can pretty much trace Islam's violent fanaticism to generally no earlier than the last 100 years. After all, people in 1905 did not have to deal with global Islamic terrorism, now did they?

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