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Old 12-12-2005, 08:40 PM   #31
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It's disgraceful...but not all that surprising.

Although we hate to admit it, there has always been underlying racism and intolerance in Australian society. Whilst most of us are tolerant, there are many white supremicists in Australia and many people who hate the idea of integrating with anyone who does not identify with supposed Australian values and the way of life.

Also, notice how the riots happened in Sydney? In comparison with Melbourne, Sydney has always been an intense, hate-filled city. In Melbourne, and particularly in areas such as Dandenong
and St Albans, there does exist some spotfires of racial tension, yet they are unlikely to escalate, because people are much more down to earth and friendly down here.

Seriously, if you are thinking of taking a trip to Australia. Melbourne is the place to go. Not only do we have a tremendous nightlife and places to shop, but we also draw better art, music and fashion exhibitions. And of course, we are unofficially the sporting capital of the world. Sydney can't boast an F1 GP, a grand slam tennis tournament and their own sport (Aussie Rules Footy). We had the Olympics 44 years before them anyway.
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Old 12-12-2005, 09:13 PM   #32
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Old 12-12-2005, 10:13 PM   #33
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Jennifer Cornwall, who is writing a municipal history of the shire, said Sunday’s riot was part of a continuing problem fanned by the rise of Pauline Hanson, Tampa and terrorists. “Now they’re fighting the ‘Lebs’, as they call them, but I have a 1974 report by the council on problems between locals and so-called ‘wogs’ that talks about parochialism and racism,” she said. “Before that, the locals fought the ‘Bankies’. Really, it’s partly about protecting your territory from outsiders and sticking with your mates."
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/an-angry-ride-into-the-dark-side-of-mateship/2005/12/12/1134236006264.html
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Old 12-12-2005, 10:14 PM   #34
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Intedomine, I'm going to assume you are very knowledgeable on Sydney and it's particular brand of racial tension which reaches all levels and cultures? I cant speak very well on Melbourne, as I've only been there 3 or 4 times in my life and my opinion of the place is not relevant as it does not accurately display what Melbourne probably is.
But anyway, where abouts did you live? Cabramatta or somewhere, I assume? That entire region is filled with a vast amount of hate among the groups living there. You've entirely skipped the very complicated problem with assimilation their cultures face with immigration which is fuelled by hateful ignorant youth on all sides who do nothing to harmoniously work these things out but instead thrive on the rush of a police line armed with shields and capsicum spray, and the resultant expectant mother media who salivate to report it in the most dramatic tabloid-esque way. But I'm sure you're very well understood on it regardless, and are aware that it is not at all a black and white issue.
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Old 12-12-2005, 11:47 PM   #35
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Intedomine, I'm going to assume you are very knowledgeable on Sydney and it's particular brand of racial tension which reaches all levels and cultures? I cant speak very well on Melbourne, as I've only been there 3 or 4 times in my life and my opinion of the place is not relevant as it does not accurately display what Melbourne probably is.
But anyway, where abouts did you live? Cabramatta or somewhere, I assume? That entire region is filled with a vast amount of hate among the groups living there. You've entirely skipped the very complicated problem with assimilation their cultures face with immigration which is fuelled by hateful ignorant youth on all sides who do nothing to harmoniously work these things out but instead thrive on the rush of a police line armed with shields and capsicum spray, and the resultant expectant mother media who salivate to report it in the most dramatic tabloid-esque way. But I'm sure you're very well understood on it regardless, and are aware that it is not at all a black and white issue.
Sorry, couldn't resist having a stab at Sydney.

I've only been to Swan City a few times, and it seems like an ok place, and quite similar to Melbourne in it's ethnic make-up.

Yet whenever you seem to hear about such rioting in Australia, more often then not it is happening in Sydney. Take Redfern earlier in this very same year for example. And supposedly the rioting that happens at soccer matches in Sydney is even more intense then in Melbourne.

I just wonder what it is that makes the ethnic tension in Sydney more fiery and palpable than in Melbourne?

The most significant thing about these riots, I feel, is that they are drawing a massive, and unusual, particiaption rate amongst Anglo-Saxon Australia, which is quite amazing, and I have never seen anything like it.
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Old 12-12-2005, 11:58 PM   #36
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Originally posted by intedomine


I just wonder what it is that makes the ethnic tension in Sydney more fiery and palpable than in Melbourne?

I wonder if it's just because it hasn't actually blown up in Melbourne yet. I find lots of times people don't know what is actually going on around them until it explodes. I've heard so many people say "oh that would never happen in my town" and then in the next month or so, guess what happens? Yep, the very thing that they said would never happen there.
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Old 12-13-2005, 12:01 AM   #37
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I think that anybody involved in violence should have their welfare cut for a year
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Old 12-13-2005, 01:25 AM   #38
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I don't agree that there is an underlying 'white supremicist' movement of people who hate multicultural, its just, until about 50 or so years ago Australia was a mainly white country (aside from tradiontional aboriginal land owners, but we wont go ther eon this particular occasion) and so a lot of the old 'rsl' men and women etc do seem rather 'kic them all out' but then they'd be just as ashamed by all the "surfies" "druggies" and "hippies" who were the ones who instigated the riot anyway.

I believe on a whole that most racial tension isn't between anglo saxon australians and others but between other races whos hatred spills from their homeland rather then flare up here. Also, most of the "racism" was young men and women, drunk as all fuck trying to get a few swipes at a police officer to impress their friends. You know how mobs get, get a bunch of humans together and we are the biggest dumb arses in the world.

I also live in Melbourne (and St Albans!) and while there are a few ethinic groups that drag past each others hang outs in some fake bravado most of it is left to mutterings and side comments, which EVERYONE does!

I just hope the world realises that really this who "race" thing was some lifeguards getting bashed (who knows why??) by some "middle eastern" appearance people and then a bunch of drunk idiots taking it all too far. And lets not forget our wonderful media that hypes a fart into a tsunami! *rolls eyes*

I love my multicultural australia!!! *hugs it*
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Old 12-13-2005, 02:08 AM   #39
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I think that multiculturalism as a means of hate speech legislation and carte balnche celebration of all cultural practices is wrong. Multiculturalism in terms of the Greeks, Italians, Vietnamese, Chinese and the Lebanese Christians has functioned without ridiculous government meddling. It is also important that people see the White Australia Policy for what it was, a means of labour protection.
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Old 12-13-2005, 02:52 AM   #40
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I don't really know what I think about all this, and in a lot of way it's none of my business - it's a long way from Sydney to my corner of this wide browned land.

That said, I won't be taking much advice from you, A_wanderer, on how to interpret the events. I'm surprised you haven't blamed it all on the islamofascists yet.

If it's not about welfare/labor/libruls, it must be the islamofascists, right?

PS yes the white australia policy was about protecting 'white' labour - does that mean all policies to protect labour are tainted? I mean, does it? Cause if that is what you believe, just say so.
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Old 12-13-2005, 03:57 AM   #41
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Wow projection much if im not making an argument that I completely dissociate in my prior posts then I must secretly have that argument on the tip of my tongue, gee whiz you have me down to a t. Oh wait, that hasn't at all been what I was thinking and you have taken the concept of Islamic terrorism and the political aims of some groups and projected it upon what I think of gang violence.

As you are no doubt aware Islamofascist as a term is used to describe a social and political ideology of certain groups that seeks to impose a form of theocratic governance that is totalitarian in nature and uses divine authority from the Koran to justify it. Since reading furthur into the topic I have come to the conclusion that the term is too blanket and cannot adequately describe the varied forms of political Islam and the different and disparate groups that expouse the Koran as being the justification for governance. The Lebanese thugs involved in harrassing women, beating up lifeguards or running reprisals hardly fall into this category. But hey if you want to play my hand as being a bigoted cunt the best of luck to you, since I have absolutely no problem in arguing my position of the white violence being one of the most digusting displays of beer fueled racist nationalism that I have seen and the Lebanese gang violence both initially and in retalliation being despicable examples of how louts undermine civil society.

The White Australia comment was a justified point in reaction too comments about Australian racism and the history of it, it highlights that sometimes racist policies are not without a little justification and the source of them cannot be pinned down on the right perpetually. An important point to make when people are bringing it up as a classic example of Australian racism without context or explaination. It is not bashing labour protections making them seem as a lingering piece of racism regardless of what ill-attributed views you wish to project upon me.

The issue of welfare in riots should not be overlooked in cases where you have community welfare dependence - I think that the economic factors influencing culture are more valid points than any intrinsic racial or aquired religious meaning and I have consistently argued that point over Redfern, Maquarie Fields and the recent Paris riots, all instances of communities with some common factors and similar sparking events. It is a valid argument beyond race or religion, it is not saying that removing every safety net would prevent violence from happening, it is saying that in instances of poor welfare dependent communities devoid of employment opportunity violence becomes an inevitablity. [This Portion Is Valid In the Listed Cases, it May Not Be Valid in this Case]

Oh and the "libruls" thing, I mean come-on, I have more in common with classical liberalism than any conservative, I imagine that creating an amalgamated Right Wing Death Beast in me would do away with such nuances.
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Old 12-13-2005, 04:10 AM   #42
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I think that anybody involved in violence should have their welfare cut for a year
I may be completely reading an incorrect suggestion within the above, but unemployment within the Cronulla area is at around 3%. If the IR scare hasn't changed things too much, this is an area that has become an incredibly strong pro-Howard region and one that Howard himself has often claimed as being his perfect little picture of Australian middle class perfection. Like I said, I may of course be reading your suggestion wrong, but if you think the Shire area of Sydney and these fuckwits running around on Sunday were doped up, unemployed, dole bludging, pothead, surfie, criminal scum - you'd be wrong. These are blue collar, 'Howards battlers', talkback radio believing, Hanson-adoring, hard working people. I think it's that which has made people so fucking disgusted, and that which has sent the blame aimed outwards towards the politicians and media that have fuelled this.

In regards to both the Bogan and Lebanese groups involved in all of this violence, as far as I'm concerned, "a curse on both your houses" and all that.
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Old 12-13-2005, 04:13 AM   #43
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In regards to both the Bogan and Lebanese groups involved in all of this violence, as far as I'm concerned, "a curse on both your houses" and all that
Good we all agree on something.

Big thumbsup to evidence based criticsm it is apreciated.

Although I would just like to check the property values and median income of of the suburb, as well as the instigators of the violence and their situation (where they live) when they are procecuted. I am more than happy to admit that I am wrong.

The type of banter at a bit like this certainly wouldn't change my mind about attitudes.
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Old 12-13-2005, 04:37 AM   #44
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I would just raise two blog posts that created the impression,

http://badanalysis.com/catallaxy/index.php?cat=26

http://www.sauer-thompson.com/archiv...la_the_au.html
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Old 12-13-2005, 04:43 AM   #45
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Below are the last census stats for the Sutherland Shire area.

By no means am I defending these people, A_Wanderer, the kind of talk in that link above would be something you could fully expect to overhear on a Saturday night in a pub in that area. I was just making sure you didn't paint them into the wrong stereotype. It's an equally fucked up stereotype, but it's the wrong one. There's always a long running argument in Sydney about 'the Shire', which I'm sure I could easily ignite in here. Unfortunately there is a stereotype that often shows it's head down there. But it comes from a middle class, working background. There are plenty of articles, particulary on the SMH website, that talk about the region.

If this were all taking place within Bankstown, all locals of Bankstown and it's demographic, anglo's fighting lebanese within Bankstown, this would be covered a little differently.

Anyway, Shire stats:

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/absce...256d0800226463!OpenDocument
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