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Old 12-12-2005, 05:22 PM   #16
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Originally posted by anitram


What about Canada?

The UN declared Toronto the most multicultural city in the world (surpassing NYC, interestingly). And we do not have comparable elements here, at least not that prominently.


even on a whole, while Canada is closer to the US in diversity than in Europe, the US is still more diverse.

i really don't know for certain, though i'm pretty sure there must be some racist "white power" elements in Canada, but i have heard that it is the lack of a palpable Canadian identity that often makes Canada attractive to immigrants. it is easier to retain the culture of the country of origin than in the US where there is a powerful, and often successful, cultural assimiation expectations due to a strong sense of American-ness. i am told that the question of what it means to be a canadian is still preoccupied with defining oneself apart from the noisy neighbor to the south, and as such, it's a little bit more DIY. where the US might be described as a melting pot, i have heard the phrase "mosaic" used for Canada -- it's the lack of a strong sense of national identity and core set of values (and in the US, these "values" are thrown at us every day by politicians using them as excuses to invade countries and such ... i mean no judgements here) that allows people to retain their old identities instead of forging new ones.

i would also say it's new. we've had racist pressure groups in the US for 150+ years, where as cultural diversity is newer to other cities in both Canada and the US. perhaps you've learned from our mistakes?
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Old 12-12-2005, 05:23 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


What about Canada?

The UN declared Toronto the most multicultural city in the world (surpassing NYC, interestingly). And we do not have comparable elements here, at least not that prominently.

and these white nationalist groups are hardly in NYC. or LA. or SF. or DC. or Denver.

they tend to be in the south or, like, Ohio.
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Old 12-12-2005, 05:40 PM   #18
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Here in Canada the majority of the population lives right along the US border or fairly close to it. And Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver account for a good chunk of those people. Those 3 cities are as multicultural as any place in the world. Regarding our national identity Irvine, yeah, Canada had always been challenged with that. We don't pledge allegiance but hockey, yeah, that is bascially our public identity, and we know we aren't Americans. I think our identity is that we have no identity. Anyone of any faith or culture can stand up and say I am Canadian yet not fit any cookie cutter conception of Canadian. Our motto is peace, order and good government whereas the US is life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Canadians love Canada but we have so many political problems and divisiveness amongst the West, Ontario, Quebec and the Atlantic provinces. We ain't perfect either.

As for the rest of Canada, there are small ethnic groups in the other cities but the rest of Canada has dumbass racist idiots all over the place, believe me, I have had to listen to their ignorant comments time and time again. I call them polite racists, if no one who can be offended is around, then shoot away. I have heard the word chink many times in my presence and then they say I didn't mean you. Yeah, thanks, you meant my dad or my grandparents. I have told off more than a few people in my day. They are just ignorant people with tiny minds and a poor upbringing so I pity them more than anything.

Discrimination comes in all forms not just racial, look at the teasing people get for braces, glasses, pimples, weight whether heavy or skinny,sexual orientation, clothes, etc. It is one of humanity's greatness weaknesses, in order to make ourselves feel better, we have to make others feel smaller. And it is so easy to go along with the crowd instead of stand up against what you know is wrong. Which is why I love these message boards and the internet because we all have a voice and no one can judge us on appearance.
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Old 12-12-2005, 05:46 PM   #19
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http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/...236005956.html

Can Alan Jones be charged under one of the new terror laws? Would make my year.
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Old 12-12-2005, 06:08 PM   #20
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Originally posted by trevster2k
Here in Canada the majority of the population lives right along the US border or fairly close to it. And Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver account for a good chunk of those people. Those 3 cities are as multicultural as any place in the world. Regarding our national identity Irvine, yeah, Canada had always been challenged with that. We don't pledge allegiance but hockey, yeah, that is bascially our public identity, and we know we aren't Americans. I think our identity is that we have no identity. Anyone of any faith or culture can stand up and say I am Canadian yet not fit any cookie cutter conception of Canadian. Our motto is peace, order and good government whereas the US is life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Canadians love Canada but we have so many political problems and divisiveness amongst the West, Ontario, Quebec and the Atlantic provinces. We ain't perfect either.

As for the rest of Canada, there are small ethnic groups in the other cities but the rest of Canada has dumbass racist idiots all over the place, believe me, I have had to listen to their ignorant comments time and time again. I call them polite racists, if no one who can be offended is around, then shoot away. I have heard the word chink many times in my presence and then they say I didn't mean you. Yeah, thanks, you meant my dad or my grandparents. I have told off more than a few people in my day. They are just ignorant people with tiny minds and a poor upbringing so I pity them more than anything.

Discrimination comes in all forms not just racial, look at the teasing people get for braces, glasses, pimples, weight whether heavy or skinny,sexual orientation, clothes, etc. It is one of humanity's greatness weaknesses, in order to make ourselves feel better, we have to make others feel smaller. And it is so easy to go along with the crowd instead of stand up against what you know is wrong. Which is why I love these message boards and the internet because we all have a voice and no one can judge us on appearance.


very interesting post.



canada looks so nice these days ... and, riots aside, so does Australia.
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Old 12-12-2005, 06:11 PM   #21
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It is rather curious that countries like the United States and Australia have White Nationalist movements. Can anyone shed any light on this phenomenon?
well see way back in the day after all the natives were died out, they needed *someone* to work the plantations...

seriously, it's just uneducated rednecks in a time warp for the most part. many people may be subtley or not so subtley racist because they fear certain minorities endanger their jobs and also what they see as their american way, but that doesn't equate to a widespread white nationalist movement per se. if you look at history, irish, germans, italians etc were not considered white when they came to this country. i think it's the "there goes the neighborhood" thing more than some sort of nationalism concept like you're more likely to find in europe.

i see underlying racism relatively often unfortunately, but i don't think there's a significantly present white nationalist movement (don't know the stats though). i guess in a country of 300 million with every ethnicity you can imagine, you'll get stuck with a few crazies.
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Old 12-12-2005, 06:18 PM   #22
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I find it interesting that the foreign news services seem to be playing it up as a one sided racist attack. Now these surfie fucks who attacked innocent people on the basis of race, police officers and ambulances show what the mixture of alcohol, mobs and self-righteous rage can do. The reprisal attacks by the Lebanese are also indiscriminately racist attacks, so busting up cars. stabbing and beating with bats is portrayed ambiguously on some media outlets (*cough* SBS World News) while the Anglo violence and thuggery is explicitly spelled out. Some of the international reports that I have read have not shown the initial event before the utterly inecusable violence or stated the event that started it which was the beating of the lifesavers and the ongoing harrasment of others who used the beach specifically girls and women.
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Old 12-12-2005, 06:21 PM   #23
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^yeah I was just thinking that after reading the articles posted in the other thread on this. neither is acceptable, and it's probably inaccurate to describe this as simply white nationalism rather than racial violence from two mobs.
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Old 12-12-2005, 06:25 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
but i have heard that it is the lack of a palpable Canadian identity that often makes Canada attractive to immigrants.
I would say that Canada's attractiveness boils down to a more practical level. It is considered much easier to legally immigrate to Canada than it is to immigrate to the U.S.

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Old 12-12-2005, 06:28 PM   #25
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I would say that Canada's attractiveness boils down to a more practical level. It is considered much easier to legally immigrate to Canada than it is to
And the government just drastically increased the number of legal immigrants we will be taking annually.
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Old 12-12-2005, 06:44 PM   #26
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Seems some in the news and political arena have forgotten Macquarie Fields. And curious that no mention that the initial instigator was the revolting attack on the lifesavers.
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Old 12-12-2005, 06:56 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


And the government just drastically increased the number of legal immigrants we will be taking annually.
Yeah, we need this as our birth rate is barely at replacement levels. Unfortunately, our human resources policies don't match our immigration policies in that we want the best people yet many aren't allowed to work here despite being trained as engineers, physicians or scientists. They end driving a taxi or working in a factory OR end up leaving for the US. That 's one thing that pisses me off is all the damn different provincial qualifications for different careers, jeez, just one standard for the whole country, save a lot of money and headache.


I agree with the reporting of the riots in Australia, it goes both ways. Violence by either group is wrong and should not be tolerated.
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Old 12-12-2005, 07:20 PM   #28
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Unfortunately, our human resources policies don't match our immigration policies in that we want the best people yet many aren't allowed to work here despite being trained as engineers, physicians or scientists. They end driving a taxi or working in a factory OR end up leaving for the US. That 's one thing that pisses me off is all the damn different provincial qualifications for different careers, jeez, just one standard for the whole country, save a lot of money and headache.
Just getting your qualifications in any field is ridiculous.

I work with two women who were MDs in China. Their problem in Ontario is twofold. First, they need to pass the relevant medical licensing exams. This in itself is a long and tedious process, and immediately many immigrants give up because they simply cannot afford to stay home and study for a couple of years. Who will support their families? So they fall into the trap of taking any job to feed their kids, even if the job is far beneath their actual qualifications. Second, the ones who are lucky enough to study and pass the exams still need to secure an internship, and this is nearly impossible. The numbers of internships and residencies available are determined in great part by the spots available in medical schools, so in effect you may be left with no extras, or a tiny handful.

It's bureaucracy and short sightedness at every step.
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Old 12-12-2005, 07:27 PM   #29
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Originally posted by trevster2k


Yeah, we need this as our birth rate is barely at replacement levels. Unfortunately, our human resources policies don't match our immigration policies in that we want the best people yet many aren't allowed to work here despite being trained as engineers, physicians or scientists. They end driving a taxi or working in a factory OR end up leaving for the US. That 's one thing that pisses me off is all the damn different provincial qualifications for different careers, jeez, just one standard for the whole country, save a lot of money and headache.


I agree with the reporting of the riots in Australia, it goes both ways. Violence by either group is wrong and should not be tolerated.
This is precisely like Australia. I had 2 Indian neighbours and one was a biochemist and one was a doctor. She became a stay at home mum when they moved out here and he drove taxis to support them. The lives they left behind were so vastly different to the ones they got out here. They maintained they'd not swap it for anything, but immigrants do give up so much sometimes to gain what they missed initially.
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Old 12-12-2005, 08:25 PM   #30
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CNN Reports
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Anti-Arab rioters smash cars, windows in Sydney
link

Must be a lot of self-loathing because this was done by "men of Middle Eastern appearance"

So when Arab yobbos go on a rampage against Anglos it is gang violence, other way around its racism, if people use the racism angle they could at least use it consistently

A decent piece in The Australian
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Tim Priest: Blame race riots on police force neglect

THE headlines in Sydney's main newspapers in the wake of Sunday's riots had similar themes: "Our disgrace", "Day of shame" and so on. And indeed, to any even-minded citizen, Sunday was certainly not one of the Harbour City's better days. Let's not mince words: the behaviour of the rioters at Cronulla beach, as political, police and community leaders have insisted, was disgusting and disgraceful.

But the events that unfolded in the Sutherland Shire reminded me of the lyrics from the song Gravity by British band Embrace a few years ago: "It's been a long time coming ... and I can't stop now."

That song encapsulated the mood and the agenda of everyone who gathered at the beachside suburb. This was to be a day of protest unlike anything we have witnessed in Sydney before.

I ventured down to Cronulla and watched the scenes unfold from about 11am. I watched as groups of young men walked to the beach carrying cartons of beer and drinking freely as small groups of police walked around. They obviously had no instructions from senior police to curtail and deter the always volatile mixture of alcohol and public gatherings.

That was the first big error and probably the most telling. The second mistake was the inability of senior police in command to read the crowd and to anticipate its mood. Sure, I saw any number of earnest-looking police commanders earlier in the day, all armed with the obligatory mobile phone and clipboard. Later I saw them safely ensconced in the command post located above the surf club.

It reminded me of the old British army model, of the generals gathered on horseback on hills many kilometres from the battle, watching the front-line troops fight but removed from the emotional and physical atmosphere that often gave the telltale signs that disaster lurked nearby.
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