Swift Boat Vets-- Liars?

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What Happened in Kerry's Vietnam Battles?

'Nightline' Speaks to Witnesses of Disputed Firefights

By ANDREW MORSE

Oct. 14, 2004 -- Oct. 15, 2004 - In the controversy over Sen. John Kerry's service in Vietnam, Americans have heard from Kerry, from the crew of the Navy Swift boats he commanded and from other Swift boat veterans who question the official account of a 1969 incident for which Kerry was awarded a Silver Star. But there is one group they have not heard from: the Vietnamese who were there that day.

According to the military citation, Kerry was awarded the medal for his actions during an intense firefight on Feb. 28, 1969, during which he shot and killed a Viet Cong fighter who was armed with a rocket launcher. Members of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth group have charged that the Viet Cong fighter was a teenager who was alone, who was not part of a numerically superior force, and who was already wounded and running away when Kerry shot him.

"Nightline" traveled to Vietnam and found a number of witnesses who have never been heard from before, and who have no particular ax to grind for or against Kerry. Only one of them, in fact, even knew who Kerry is. The witnesses, all Vietnamese, are still living in the same villages where the fighting took place more than 35 years ago. A "Nightline" producer visited them and recorded their accounts of that day. The accounts were subsequently translated by a team of ABC News translators.

A Village Unchanged

Life along the Bay Hap River in southern Vietnam has changed very little in those years. The river is lined with small hamlets and isolated shacks reachable only by boat. They are surrounded by marshland, separated by winding canals, and concealed by thick walls of vegetation.

The canals lead to Tran Thoi village, the coordinates of which are publicly available in the U.S. military's after-action report on the 1969 battle. The Vietnamese government initially rejected "Nightline's" request to visit the village, saying it did not want to somehow influence the U.S. presidential election. Once "Nightline" explained that the intention was to simply find out what the Vietnamese people remember and think of what happened there, permission was granted.

On Feb. 28, 1969, a convoy of three American Swift boats came up the river under the command of Lt. John Kerry, arriving at the village of Tran Thoi. According to Kerry's medal citation, the boats "came under intense automatic weapons and small arms fire from an entrenched enemy force less than 50 feet away. Unhesitatingly, Lieutenant [junior grade] Kerry ordered his boat to attack."

The Swift boats, which were transporting a group of the Americans' South Vietnamese allies, turned into the ambush and beached. According to the after-action report, the South Vietnamese troops stormed ashore, overwhelming the local insurgents.

More Fighting

The fierce firefight at Tran Thoi was just the beginning of the day that has become so central to Kerry's biography. Kerry's boat, PCF 94, and one of the other boats continued upriver. The ABC News team took the same route to the site of the second deadly incident that day.

According to the Navy's official report, following the initial ambush, Kerry's boat and another Swift boat continued up the river to an area where gunshots had been reported.

Less than a kilometer upriver is Nha Vi, a small hamlet. Vo Van Tam, now 54, was a local Viet Cong commander during the war. According to him, the area was a hotbed of guerrilla activity. They had recently been reinforced by a 12-man unit, supplied with small arms and one B-40 rocket launcher. He said the reinforcements had been dispatched from provincial headquarters specifically to target the Swift boats.

According to Vo, there were at least 20 Viet Cong soldiers at Nha Vi there that day. "There were 12 soldiers from the provincial level and eight from the district level," he said.

His wife, Vo Thi Vi, 54, said Feb. 28, 1969, is a day that the villagers of Nha Vi hamlet will never forget. "Everything was destroyed," she said. "There's no houses left. They leveled everything. There was no leaves left. The fighting was very fierce."

According to the citation for Kerry's Silver Star, when the boats approached the hamlet, "a B-40 rocket exploded close aboard PCF 94" -- Kerry's boat. He "personally led a landing party ashore in pursuit of the enemy," the citation says, before commending Kerry's "extraordinary daring and personal courage" for "attacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense fire."

That account is disputed by Swift boat veteran John O'Neill, author of "Unfit for Command," who maintains in his book that the statement "is simply false. There was little or no fire."

Different Accounts

Villagers say this is what they saw:

"Firing from over here. Firing from over there. Firing from the boat," Vo Thi Vi told "Nightline."

She was only a couple hundred yards away when a Swift boat turned and approached the shore, she said, adding that the boat was unleashing a barrage of gunfire as it approached.

"I ran," she recalled, "Running fast. ... And the Americans came from down there, yelling 'Attack, Attack!' And we ran."

Her husband, Tam, said the man who fired the B-40 rocket was hit in this barrage of gunfire. Then, he said, "he ran about 18 meters before he died, falling dead."

Was the man killed by Kerry or by fire from the Swift boat? It was the heat of battle, Tam said, and he doesn't know exactly how the man with the rocket launcher died. But he knows the man's name -- Ba Thanh. He was one of the 12 reinforcements sent to the village by provincial headquarters, and after he died, the firefight continued, according to Tam.

"When the firing started, Ba Thanh was killed," Tam said. "And I led Ba Thanh's comrades, the whole unit, to fight back. And we ran around the back and fought the Americans from behind. We worked with the city soldiers to fire on the American boats."

According to the after-action report, after beaching the Swift boat, Kerry "chased VC inland, behind hooch, and shot him while he fled, capturing one B-40 rocket launcher, with round in chamber."

None of the villagers seems to be able to say for a fact that they saw an American chase the man who fired the B-40 into the woods and shoot him. Nobody seems to remember that. But they have no problem remembering Ba Thanh, the man who has been dismissed by Kerry's detractors as "a lone, wounded, fleeing, young Vietcong in a loincloth." (The description comes from "Unfit for Command," by Swift boat veteran John O'Neill.)

"No, this is not correct," Nguyen Thi Tuoi, 77, told ABC News. "He wore a black pajama. He was strong. He was big and strong. He was about 26 or 27."

Tuoi said she didn't see Ba Thanh get shot either, but she and her husband say they were the first to find his body. They say they found him a good distance from his bunker, though she could not confirm that Kerry -- or anyone else -- had pursued him into the bush.

Her husband, Nguyen Van Ty, in his 80s, had a slightly different account of how Ba Thanh died.

"I didn't see anything because I was hiding from the bullets and the bombs," he said. "It was very fierce and there was shooting everywhere and the leaves were being shredded to pieces. I was afraid to stay up there. I had to hide. And then, when it was over, I saw Ba Thanh was dead. He may have been shot in the chest when he stood up."

He also said the Swift boats were coming under attack from the Viet Cong fighters on shore. "We tried to shoot at the boat," he said, "but we didn't hit anything."

Kerry's citation says he "uncovered an enemy rest and supply area, which was destroyed," but according to the villagers, the Americans missed the military supplies. In fact, Vo Ti Vi said, just a few weeks after the attack, the Viet Cong raided a U.S. base stealing weapons and ammunition. The weapons remain in Nha Vi all these years later, she says, buried under her garden.

Back in Tran Thoi, villager Nguyen Van Khoai said that about six months ago he was visited by an American who described himself as a Swift boat veteran and told him another American from the Swift boats was running for president of the United States. Nguyen said the man was accompanied by a cameraman.

"They say he didn't do anything to deserve the medal," Nguyen said. "The other day, they came and asked me the questions and I said that the recognition for the medal is up to the U.S.A."

He said that, after they met, the Swift Boat veteran and the cameraman turned around and went back down the river. "Nightline" has not been able to identify the men.

Campaign Issue Arises

His awards should have been the most unassailable part of Kerry's record. But then came those campaign ads from the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. "He is lying about his record," said Ensign Al French in one ad.

Most of the charges in the ads were general: "When the chips were down you could not count on John Kerry," said Lt. j.g. Larry Thurlow. "John Kerry is no war hero," said Lt. Bob Elder. Some of the charges referred to the anti-war testimony Kerry gave before Congress.

But John O'Neill, the officer who took over command of Kerry's Swift boat after Kerry left Vietnam, raised some specific questions about the incident for which Kerry received his most significant award, the Silver Star:

"In the Silver Star incident, John Kerry's citation reflects that he charged into a numerically superior force, and into intense fire," O'Neill told ABC News in an August 2004 interview. "But the actual facts are that there was a single kid there who had fired a rocket, who popped up, and John Kerry with his gunboat, with or without a number of troops, depending on who you talk to, plopped in front of the kid. The kid was wounded in the legs by machine gun fire, and as he ran off, John Kerry jumped off the boat and shot the kid in the back."



link here
 
Viet Cong?

It is 2004.


These people have no vested interest.

They are villagers.
They tell what happened when Ba Thanh was killed.

How ridiculous is it to assume these people are pushing the agenda of the soldiers who killed their friends, family and husbands.

None of the villagers seems to be able to say for a fact that they saw an American chase the man who fired the B-40 into the woods and shoot him. Nobody seems to remember that. But they have no problem remembering Ba Thanh, the man who has been dismissed by Kerry's detractors as "a lone, wounded, fleeing, young Vietcong in a loincloth." (The description comes from "Unfit for Command," by Swift boat veteran John O'Neill.)

"No, this is not correct," Nguyen Thi Tuoi, 77, told ABC News. "He wore a black pajama. He was strong. He was big and strong. He was about 26 or 27."

Tuoi said she didn't see Ba Thanh get shot either, but she and her husband say they were the first to find his body. They say they found him a good distance from his bunker, though she could not confirm that Kerry -- or anyone else -- had pursued him into the bush.

Her husband, Nguyen Van Ty, in his 80s, had a slightly different account of how Ba Thanh died.

"I didn't see anything because I was hiding from the bullets and the bombs," he said. "It was very fierce and there was shooting everywhere and the leaves were being shredded to pieces. I was afraid to stay up there. I had to hide. And then, when it was over, I saw Ba Thanh was dead. He may have been shot in the chest when he stood up."

He also said the Swift boats were coming under attack from the Viet Cong fighters on shore. "We tried to shoot at the boat," he said, "but we didn't hit anything."
 
the same could be said about the swift boat vets nbc....how could they remember events from 35 years ago, involving a guy...just a guy, not even on their boat?
 
because Kerry took around his home movie camera asking everyone to restructure and reenact the events at his direction.

what a soilder.:up:

db9
 
diamond said:
because Kerry took around his home movie camera asking everyone to restructure and reenact the events at his direction.

what a soilder.:up:

db9

a better one than bush... he wasnt even there to carry around a camera, much less a gun to fight for his country.
 
nbcrusader said:
Interesting how they remember with such vivid detail the events of 35 years ago, specifically events involving Kerry....


Do they?

Their recollections seem very credible.

It is from their perspective.

About THEIR participation and THEIR deaths in this specific incident.

Exactlly what one would remember.

I think they would pounce on an unarmed naked teenager being shot in the back.
 
well when it gets right down to it does it really matter? The guy went to Nam, SIGNED up to go...when he could have gotten out of it cuz he was in college. Then he goes and signs up for a second tour of duty, because he felt it was the right thing to do. He wanted to serve his country. If that doesnt define courage I dunno what does. I think John Kerry deserved all the awards he got...I think every single person that went over there deserves awards enough to weigh them down. Does the fact that Kerry got them and others didn't take away from the fact that Kerry deserved them? No...it doesn't. He was a young man, in the prime of his life and he volunteered to put his life on the line, not for one tour of duty but for two...to serve his country. That deserves admiration and nothing less.
 
deep said:
Do they?

Their recollections seem very credible.

It is from their perspective.

About THEIR participation and THEIR deaths in this specific incident.

Exactlly what one would remember.

I think they would pounce on an unarmed naked teenager being shot in the back.

And they can link their experience specifically to Kerry how? This is unlikely the only firefight they experienced.
 
LoveTown said:
well when it gets right down to it does it really matter? The guy went to Nam, SIGNED up to go...when he could have gotten out of it cuz he was in college. Then he goes and signs up for a second tour of duty, because he felt it was the right thing to do. He wanted to serve his country. If that doesnt define courage I dunno what does. I think John Kerry deserved all the awards he got...I think every single person that went over there deserves awards enough to weigh them down. Does the fact that Kerry got them and others didn't take away from the fact that Kerry deserved them? No...it doesn't. He was a young man, in the prime of his life and he volunteered to put his life on the line, not for one tour of duty but for two...to serve his country. That deserves admiration and nothing less.

We both agree with GWB, who has repeatedly said Kerry should be proud of his service. :up:
 
nbcrusader said:


We both agree with GWB, who has repeatedly said Kerry should be proud of his service. :up:

Yep, I have heard GWB say that...now he needs to tell the swift boat veterans for truth to stfu and I will have a new-found respect for the old boy :wink:
 
The problem with that Nightline story, which didn't bother Ted Koppel too much was that the recollections of those people in Vietnam didn't match the account given in John Kerrys biography. Who to believe, Kerry's biography, or their memory (remember this is nearly 40 years later). I dunno. All I know is that there are inconsistencies and the Swift Boat Vets can't be dismissed that easily.

That said, I think this constant rehash of Vietnam is ridiculous. I respect Kerry's service and thank him for it. It's a pity that he decided to make it the focal point of the first 8 months of his campaign and reopened the wounds that America is trying to put behind it.
 
ImOuttaControl said:
The problem with that Nightline story, which didn't bother Ted Koppel too much was that the recollections of those people in Vietnam didn't match the account given in John Kerrys biography.

.
bingo:up:

Futhurmore GW Bush never claimed to be a SuperHero while Kerry has while most of his commrades disagree with him save only a minute few who ARE PAID right now by the Kerry Campaign.


that's the issue.

peace,
db9
 
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diamond said:

bingo:up:

Futhurmore GW Bush never claimed to be a SuperHero





bush-on-abe-lincoln.jpg
 
LoveTown said:
well when it gets right down to it does it really matter? The guy went to Nam, SIGNED up to go...when he could have gotten out of it cuz he was in college. Then he goes and signs up for a second tour of duty, because he felt it was the right thing to do. He wanted to serve his country. If that doesnt define courage I dunno what does. I think John Kerry deserved all the awards he got...I think every single person that went over there deserves awards enough to weigh them down. Does the fact that Kerry got them and others didn't take away from the fact that Kerry deserved them? No...it doesn't. He was a young man, in the prime of his life and he volunteered to put his life on the line, not for one tour of duty but for two...to serve his country. That deserves admiration and nothing less.

I agree. Everyone knows this, he's got my vote. Some disagree. That's cool. It's a free country.
 
Oh knock it off. This thread is ridiculous. How bout I start one: WWF, real or fake? Britney Spears: Voice of a generation? The swiftvets are the willie hortons for a new generation of fleeceables.
 
hmmm:hmm:
other then the media either trying to ignore, silence or discredit them the SwiftBoatVet's stories and claims have stood up to scruntiny.

Furthurmore a few high ranking SwiftVets actually are Democrat and voted for Gore in 2000.
How do you explain that?

db9
 
diamond, my honest answer to that question is that many Vietnam vets felt angry about Kerry speaking out against the war after he returned home. I think many of them felt betrayed by one of their own and now they will do whatever it takes to get him back for what he did. Simple as that.

Along those same lines, if I was a Vietnam vet I may feel the same way as they do. But I have read the entire transcript of Kerry's testimony and he never blamed the solidiers for what happened. He blamed the system and the way the war was handled.

Whether you agree with him or not you have to admit that really took a lot of guts. How many people are that vocal about what they stand for? How many people would risk losing so much to speak up for what they think is right?
 
Kerry speaking out against the war after he returned home.

I believe this is what fuels their hatred.


Many understand their disagreement with Kerry's actions.

But, lying about what happened when Kerry volunteered and was risking his life is not excusable, and leaves them with little credibility.
 
deep said:


I believe this is what fuels their hatred.


Many understand their disagreement with Kerry's actions.

But, lying about what happened when Kerry volunteered and was risking his life is not excusable, and leaves them with little credibility.

I agree. They are really pissed off about his anti-war activities. I actually took personal offense with the Swift Boat guys. The main reason was the avowed anti-Catholicism of co-author Jerome Corsi. In *public* posts on FreeRepublic, he claimed the Pope is senile, the Catholic clergy is decadent as long as the allegedly liberal media doesn't report it, and other highly objectionable things. Their stories haven't stood up to scrutiny, IMHO. The idea that Kerry's first Purple Heart was because of a self-induced wound is "I don't know whether to laugh or cry" material. Garbage. Sinclair has been hit with a libel suit from a Vietnam vet who claims that his film makes him look like a liar. Go for it. It's true. I hate all of this politically motivated dirt. Ugh. :mad: :madspit: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored:
 
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LoveTown said:


Yep, I have heard GWB say that...now he needs to tell the swift boat veterans for truth to stfu and I will have a new-found respect for the old boy :wink:

He has. They don't take orders from him, apparently.
 
LoveTown said:
Yep, I have heard GWB say that...now he needs to tell the swift boat veterans for truth to stfu and I will have a new-found respect for the old boy :wink:

You raise an interesting issue of whether a candidate is/should be responsible (and if so, to what degree) for the statements made by the "527" groups.

Neither side has made much of an effort to stop these groups.
 
nbcrusader said:


You raise an interesting issue of whether a candidate is/should be responsible (and if so, to what degree) for the statements made by the "527" groups.

Neither side has made much of an effort to stop these groups.

yes, I have to be fair, some of the democratic messages are quite nasty as well and I find myself hoping that at the end I dont hear "My name is John Kerry and I approve this message"
 
nbcrusader said:


You raise an interesting issue of whether a candidate is/should be responsible (and if so, to what degree) for the statements made by the "527" groups.

Neither side has made much of an effort to stop these groups.

I know. It's annoying. I don't like the 527's, I really don't give a :censored: who it is. I suppose it's the natural legacy of McCain-Feingold. It's so frustrating to think that every time you think a problem has been solved a new one rears its ugly head.:madspit: :mad: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored:
 
verte76 said:


I know. It's annoying. I don't like the 527's, I really don't give a :censored: who it is. I suppose it's the natural legacy of McCain-Feingold. It's so frustrating to think that every time you think a problem has been solved a new one rears its ugly head.:madspit: :mad: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored:

You really didn't believe that the politicians wanted a real solution, did you?
 
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