Supreme Court News Here

[Dreadsox]

Well...today may be an interesting day for the Ten Commandments.

 

[Dreadsox]

By HOPE YEN, Associated Press Writer
4 minutes ago



WASHINGTON - A split Supreme Court struck down Ten Commandments displays in courthouses Monday, ruling that two exhibits in Kentucky cross the line between separation of church and state because they promote a religious message.

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The 5-4 decision was the first of two seeking to mediate the bitter culture war over religion's place in public life. In it, the court declined to prohibit all displays in court buildings or on government property. Justices left legal wiggle room, saying that some displays — like their own courtroom frieze — would be permissible if they're portrayed neutrally in order to honor the nation's legal history.

But framed copies in two Kentucky courthouses went too far in endorsing religion, the court held.

"The touchstone for our analysis is the principle that the First Amendment mandates government neutrality between religion and religion, and between religion and nonreligion," Justice David H. Souter wrote for the majority.

"When the government acts with the ostensible and predominant purpose of advancing religion, it violates tha central Establishment clause value of official religious neutrality," he said.

Souter was joined in his opinion by other members of the liberal bloc — Justices

 

[pax]

I have to say, I think this is the right call.

 

[A_Wanderer]

 

[nbcrusader]

The question becomes: can the Ten Commandments be portrayed in a "neutral" fashion? And, if so, what will it take to be "neutral"?

 

[BVS]

Well it only fits within 2 religions...how many have we here in this country?

 

[Dreadsox]

hmmm

 

[nbcrusader]

Well it only fits within 2 religions...how many have we here in this country?

It fits two and is meaningless to the rest.

 

[deep]

It fits two and is meaningless to the rest.

This is what "the rest" have said?


I don't think so.

 

[nbcrusader]

What do you think it means to "the rest"?

 

[deep]

If I am your childs school teacher and I have this posted in the front of the class

"There is no god but Allah,
and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah"


and I tell you

"it means something to my Moslem students and nothing to the rest"



Would it mean nothing to your child and to you, who are part of "the rest"?

 

[verte76]

I think there is a place to exhibit Ten Commandments displays, it just doesn't happen to be in a courthouse. A local cultural exhibit would be fine. If there were an Institute of Southern Culture anywhere, in fact, I would object if there were no mention of the strong role of religion in the South.

 

[BVS]

It fits two and is meaningless to the rest.

You can't really believe that...

 

[nbcrusader]

If I am your childs school teacher and I have this posted in the front of the class

"There is no god but Allah,
and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah"


and I tell you

"it means something to my Moslem students and nothing to the rest"



Would it mean nothing to your child and to you, who are part of "the rest"?

We would understand it as the belief of Muslims. As far as establishment of my beliefs, or my children's beliefs, it would not have "meaning".

Also, bear in mind, your own example would violate the court's standard.

 

[deep]

nice dodge



I have read things you have posted in here where you complain about much less


The fact that is will not happen
and it is not your ox that is being gored, allows you to dismiss it so easily.

 

[nbcrusader]

So why are you making such an issue of this? Is it a true fear of establishment of religion or a exercise of political power?

 

[BVS]

So why are you making such an issue of this? Is it a true fear of establishment of religion or a exercise of political power?

It's just the right thing to do. Why keep them, if they don't speak for everyone?

Why have a government building that doesn't encompass all of it's citizens? Makes no sense to me.

 

[nbcrusader]

If a building doesn't incorporate feng shui, is it not encompassing all of the population?

It's a small monument in front of a building. If your standard is that a monument should speak for everyone, we would have no monuments, no art, nothing. It is ridiculous.

 

[BVS]

If a building doesn't incorporate feng shui, is it not encompassing all of the population?

No because that would be a spiritual belief, that's not believed by everyone.

It's a small monument in front of a building. If your standard is that a monument should speak for everyone, we would have no monuments, no art, nothing. It is ridiculous.

The bill or rights speaks for the citizens of this nation, it's our foundation. Seems like it has more business being in front of a government building rather than a religious monument.

 

[Ultraviolet Light]

what will it take to be "neutral"?

The Lemon test?
(1) have secular purpose
(2) neither advance nor inhibit religion
(3) no excessive government entanglement with religion

I fail to see the secular purpose of the display.
Also, in Stone v. Graham the Burger court found a Kentucky law requiring a posted copy of the Ten Commandments in public school classrooms violated the first prong of the Lemon test and therefore violated the Establishment Clause.

"The Commandments do not confine themselves to arguably secular matters, such as honoring one's parents, killing or murder, adultery, stealing, false witness, and covetousness. [...] Rather, the first part of the Commandments concerns the religious duties of believers: worshipping the Lord God alone, avoiding idolatry, not using the Lord's name in vain, and observing the Sabbath Day." (from Stone)


Seems like precedent makes this a pretty easy decision.

 

[nbcrusader]

No because that would be a spiritual belief, that's not believed by everyone.

But by not incorporating feng shui, you are excluding those who follow it.

The bill or rights speaks for the citizens of this nation, it's our foundation. Seems like it has more business being in front of a government building rather than a religious monument.

And yet, we are no where near Establishing a government run religion (a la The Church of England), despite all our "theocracy watches".

 

[Scarletwine]

The hoot of the issue is the tablets in Texas were originally put there as an advertisement for the movie.

 

[A_Wanderer]

And yet, we are no where near Establishing a government run religion (a la The Church of England), despite all our "theocracy watches".

A bit unfair Church of England is for all intensive purposes secular today (sarc) and when it was created the concept of seperation of church and state was non-existent, the real modern European religion is in intrusive government (random example is the mandatory housework clause being put in Spanish marriage certificates). Who wants bloody priests going around telling people how to live their lives when it can all be centralised and issued by petty beurocrats.

 

[BVS]

But by not incorporating feng shui, you are excluding those who follow it.

How does it exclude them? People who believe in feng shui are allowed to walk in feng shui buildings, really its usually only their homes and if they own a business where feng shui even takes effect. Even then most wouldn't even notice it for there are no symbols. I designed 3 restaurants for someone who believed in feng shui.

And yet, we are no where near Establishing a government run religion (a la The Church of England), despite all our "theocracy watches".

That wasn't the question you asked, you asked what if any monuments would be "neutral" enough.

No one has even come close to answering me why we need the 10 commandments in a government building. And for those that have erroneously claimed it was because it was the foundation of our law making, only 2 commandments, if you stretch 2 1/2 commandments are law, and they're pretty much common sense.