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Old 05-14-2007, 07:14 PM   #16
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Iraq under US occupation is a glorious, righteous land of freedom and opportunity and the coalition has had nothing but tremendous success after success in what everyone knew from the beginning was a 50 year project, just ignore the mass death, millions upon millions of refugees, a non functioning government, and worsening regional instability.
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Old 05-14-2007, 07:30 PM   #17
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The problem is not military, it is political.

The sovereign Iraqi government is the mask of theocrats, a different stripe of theocratics nihilists are determined to destroy it to enable the formation of a Sunni Islamist state in central Iraq and use mass murder of civilians to that end, regional powers have an interest in internal Iraqi instability until the USA can enter a period of international malaise.

And all of this has nothing to do with the case for removing Saddam when his actions had consistently seemed to support the idea that the regime retained WMD or the effects of the sanctions on the Iraqi population (again mass death) but the approach to the post-bellum situation and the reconstruction (of a state that was broken since the Iraq/Iran war).
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Old 05-14-2007, 07:41 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
The problem is not military, it is political.

The sovereign Iraqi government is the mask of theocrats, a different stripe of theocratics nihilists are determined to destroy it to enable the formation of a Sunni Islamist state in central Iraq and use mass murder of civilians to that end, regional powers have an interest in internal Iraqi instability until the USA can enter a period of international malaise.

And all of this has nothing to do with the case for removing Saddam when his actions had consistently seemed to support the idea that the regime retained WMD or the effects of the sanctions on the Iraqi population (again mass death) but the approach to the post-bellum situation and the reconstruction (of a state that was broken since the Iraq/Iran war).
I don't know if anyone have take a notice to the fact that Iraqi problem was Iraqi people's business, not some one else's, until the day that one stepped in....
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Old 05-14-2007, 07:42 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
The problem is not military, it is political.


the US military can do anything.
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Old 05-14-2007, 07:56 PM   #20
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I don't know if anyone have take a notice to the fact that Iraqi problem was Iraqi people's business, not some one else's, until the day that one stepped in....
It wasn't when Saddam annexed Kuwait and the successive decade of no-fly zones and crippling sanctions enforced by the international community. Containment was pursued to ensure that Saddam would eventually declare any banned weapons or be overthrown; Bush forced it to regime change (ultimately fufiling the goals of the Iraq Liberation Act by different means) but it was at the end of a very long road of interference under the auspices of international security.
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Old 05-14-2007, 08:07 PM   #21
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It wasn't when Saddam annexed Kuwait ...
Did you remeber which year is that when it happened?

And which year did US send troops to Iraq to pull down Saddam's government? Did Iraq still have military power control over other countries by that time?

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Old 05-14-2007, 08:11 PM   #22
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And what happened in the intervening period? What was known about Saddams arsenel in 2002-2003?

I don't disagree that it was a politically timed race to war, but it's foolish to pretend that everybody knew there were no WMD at the time. And the continuous death toll of sanctions was very high and suffered by the civilian populus - the status quo with Iraq in 2002-2003 was a guaranteed bad choice.
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Old 05-14-2007, 08:13 PM   #23
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And what happened in the intervening period? What was known about Saddams arsenel in 2002-2003?
Again, it's Iraqi people's business. As long as he didn't invade other countries, it's only national conflicts, and only the nation has the right to solve it.
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Old 05-14-2007, 08:18 PM   #24
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But with a track record of not only invading other countries but also genocide with WMD and a stream defectors saying that Saddam intended to reconstitute his programs does it remain an internal matter. If your consistent then you will say it does, as would pretty much any internal crimes against humanity.

What are the limits of state sovereignty?
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Old 05-14-2007, 08:29 PM   #25
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
But with a track record of not only invading other countries but also genocide with WMD and a stream defectors saying that Saddam intended to reconstitute his programs does it remain an internal matter. If your consistent then you will say it does, as would pretty much any internal crimes against humanity.

What are the limits of state sovereignty?
Can a judge say one person is guilty because he was suspect preparing to do some crime, but haven't got it done yet?

If this logic works, the men who walk on the streets ever set eyes on me should be called criminals too, for having some THOUGHTS. Don't need to mention these who tried to flirt with me.

And we can also say US's action was against an independent country's state security. If Saddam government should be pull down by a foreigh military force for threat international security, so does the Bush government, for invadation. Why put double standard to others and yourself?
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Old 05-14-2007, 08:38 PM   #26
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Originally posted by butter7


Can a judge say one person is guilty because he was suspect preparing to do some crime, but haven't got it done yet?

If this logic works, the men who walk on the streets ever set eyes on me should be called criminals too, for having some THOUGHTS. Don't need to mention these who tried to flirt with me.

And we can also say US's action was against an independent country's state security. If Saddam government should be pull down by a foreigh military force for threat international security, so does the Bush government, for invadation. Why put double standard to others and yourself?
Absolutely. You hit the nail on the head.
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Old 05-14-2007, 08:41 PM   #27
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If your isolationist I hope that you are consistently isolationist.

The burden rested on Saddam to verifiably disarm and the thresholds shift when it is with weapons that can kill tens of thousands - it didn't happen in the years without inspectors and it didn't have time to happen in the move to war. Saddam thought the USA was bluffing while bluffing the world (read neighbouring threat Iran) with a strategic ambiguity.

Saddams rule was a slaughter; I don't think that anybody who considers themselves in solidarity with the Iraqi people to be doing them a favour by saying that he had a right to mass murder in the name of internal security. I also think that the removal of Saddam was a good thing, I think that there are decades of stupidity and calculated evil that went into US FP in the region and the big blunders have the US spending lives and coin to effectively assist Iran today.

So governments are bad, standing armies should be abolished and resistance to dictatorships should be supported (the value of US support is probably highlighted with what happened to the Shiites when they rose up).
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Old 05-14-2007, 08:52 PM   #28
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I don't know if anyone have take a notice to the fact that Iraqi problem was Iraqi people's business, not some one else's, until the day that one stepped in....
The fact is that Saddam Hussein invaded two of his neighbors in 1990. The fact is that Saddam Hussein used NBC weapons.I I guess that kind of made him everyones problem, except for those with short term memory. That is the reason the UN passed resolution after resolution. It was Iraq's responsibility to live up to the terms of the cease fire agreed to in 1991. They did not, and the UN got teeth and authorized the US to take action through Resolution 1441.
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Old 05-14-2007, 09:01 PM   #29
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Can a judge say one person is guilty because he was suspect preparing to do some crime, but haven't got it done yet?

If this logic works, the men who walk on the streets ever set eyes on me should be called criminals too, for having some THOUGHTS. Don't need to mention these who tried to flirt with me.

And we can also say US's action was against an independent country's state security. If Saddam government should be pull down by a foreigh military force for threat international security, so does the Bush government, for invadation. Why put double standard to others and yourself?
You write as if the Gulf War and Cease Fire agreed to by Saddam Hussein were not important to the situation. In 1990 Saddam Hussein invaded two of his neighbors. In the 1980's Saddam Hussein used NBC weapons against his own citizens and Irans. There is a difference between international law, and cease fire agreements. You are disreguarding the fact that Iraq, under the Gulf War Cease fire agreed to certain conditions that were not met. They did not verifiably disarm. The UN Authorized the world to take action through Resolution 1441. The USA and its Coalition Alllies were operating under the full authority of the UN Security Council. The occupation of Iraq was authorized by the UN Security Council. The US was not acting unilaterally.
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Old 05-14-2007, 09:07 PM   #30
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You know, stealing the account details of a member is a bannable offence
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