Study: Mothers Less Likely To Get Hired; Paid Less - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

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Old 02-20-2006, 09:22 PM   #16
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic

But if it's a workplace issue, than by default it has become an HR issue.
Fair enough...but in the context that all managers who makes final employment related decisions have an HR element to their role.

Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic

HR should to some extent take the fall for bad decisions because obviously the employee/exec/whoever made the bad decision was not properly trained or made aware of how the organization will or will not go about assigning jobs/promotions/benefits/etc and what is and is not acceptable.
Sometimes that's true, I have met some truly horrifying HR people (like that boss I mentioned). But more often then not, decision-makers are given all the proper training and counsel and still do whatever is expedient at the expense of what's right. When they get called on it, they blame HR lol.
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Old 02-21-2006, 12:37 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy


Fair enough...but in the context that all managers who makes final employment related decisions have an HR element to their role.

Sometimes that's true, I have met some truly horrifying HR people (like that boss I mentioned). But more often then not, decision-makers are given all the proper training and counsel and still do whatever is expedient at the expense of what's right. When they get called on it, they blame HR lol.
I agree that it happens, but it's not much of an excuse. I guess HR doesn't need to be blamed, but HR is responsible for dealing with this issue to make sure everyone understands that it is not acceptable. If decision-makers are making decisions based on questions that they're not allowed to ask and criteria they're not allowed to consider, HR shouldn't ignore it. To say "it's not our problem" just diffuses the responsibility. I feel like it happens a lot and people simply let it slide because the issue is not as blatantly controversial as something like repeated sexual harassment. Imagine if a certain couple of decision-makers were making inappropriate passes and comments at fellow employees. For HR to say "that's not us" is laughable. If you've got decision-makers that are making decisions that discriminate against women and mothers, then HR did make a mistake somewhere in the process.
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Old 02-21-2006, 10:18 AM   #18
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I think you are assuming that HR as a department has a level of authority in these matters that quite frankly, in the majority of organizations, they simply don't. HR makes recommendations, not decisions. So it's not simply a matter of HR ignoring issues, passing the buck and letting things slide. If it appears that way, HR is just a reflection of the overall management style of the company. And it would be incorrect to presume, as some do, that the role of HR is only to be an impartial employee champion. HR is a support function to the bottom line like every other aspect of management.

At the moment, the overall corporate climate doesn't value work/life balance or family and by extension you could say neither does society in general. When doing so provides competitive advantage, that will change. But currently there are no concrete consequences to not hiring mothers and paying them less.
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Old 02-21-2006, 10:50 AM   #19
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I can understand where they are coming from in a way. You want to hire the person that will be the most reliable out of two people. A single woman might be more reliable that a woman who has kids. Kids get sick, they get hurt, they need rides. That isn't much of an excuse for paying the mother less than the single woman though
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Old 02-21-2006, 05:46 PM   #20
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You underestimate the working mother, u2bonogirl. As well as not taking into account adults get sick, get hurt, have as many reasons for days or time off as mothers. Plus how many workplaces have you been in to witness the value or reliability of working mothers? I've seen enough in my time to know this argument doesn't fly.
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Old 02-21-2006, 06:12 PM   #21
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
You underestimate the working mother, u2bonogirl. As well as not taking into account adults get sick, get hurt, have as many reasons for days or time off as mothers. Plus how many workplaces have you been in to witness the value or reliability of working mothers? I've seen enough in my time to know this argument doesn't fly.
I agree. Also, studies have shown that if an organization makes an attempt to care about the families of their staff, morale and productivity increases. It doesn't even have to be something that is direct. For example, if I knew one of my collegues had trouble finding childcare for her kids and I knew that our company was working with her to sort out the issue, I would feel happy and proud to be part of this company, even though I don't have kids of my own. Working mothers also have this instinctive feeling that their work ultimately serves a purpose much greater than their own - their work makes it possible for their children to eat, have shelter, and go to school. Just because they have kids doesn't mean they will slack off, be less motivated, and be less reliable. I'm not saying working mothers deserve more (well, maybe in some cases they do), but they DONT deserve to be written off simply because they are working mothers.
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Old 02-21-2006, 09:01 PM   #22
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic

studies have shown that if an organization makes an attempt to care about the families of their staff, morale and productivity increases. ....... Just because they have kids doesn't mean they will slack off, be less motivated, and be less reliable. I'm not saying working mothers deserve more (well, maybe in some cases they do), but they DONT deserve to be written off simply because they are working mothers.


Despite all of that, many organizations and managers are faced with absolute demands (always a short term focus too) to get results that require staff to work extended hours or weekends or in other ways be completely flexible to do whatever is necessary whenever etc. All other things being equal, assumptions are made about a mother's ability to offer this level of accommodation. I'm not excusing this, just stating it as a reality in some business circumstances.
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Old 02-21-2006, 09:15 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by u2bonogirl
Kids get sick, they get hurt, they need rides.
Why would this only be an issue when hiring mothers and not with fathers?
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Old 02-21-2006, 09:44 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


Just because they have kids doesn't mean they will slack off, be less motivated, and be less reliable. I'm not saying working mothers deserve more (well, maybe in some cases they do),
In perfect agreement with your first sentence. But please clarify "well, maybe in some cases they do". Is your criteria purely work related performance or some extra motherhood credit? I'm assuming the former.
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Old 02-21-2006, 09:55 PM   #25
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Originally posted by BonosSaint


In perfect agreement with your first sentence. But please clarify "well, maybe in some cases they do". Is your criteria purely work related performance or some extra motherhood credit? I'm assuming the former.
I was referring to a debate we've been having in several of my HRM classes lately about whether or not companies should be responsible for providing day care services or other services geared towards working parents. Personally, I don't think any company should be required to, but I think companies would really be smart to try something like this or at least make an effort. Like I said before, studies have shown that when you demonstrate to your employees that you care about them beyond their contribution to the bottom line, productivity and morale increase such that the cost of providing the child care won't even matter. It applies to both men and women, but I guess you could look at it as women getting something special. That's really what I was thinking about when I added that phrase, and I included it in parentheses because it's really a seperate debate.
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Old 02-21-2006, 10:04 PM   #26
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Originally posted by AliEnvy




Despite all of that, many organizations and managers are faced with absolute demands (always a short term focus too) to get results that require staff to work extended hours or weekends or in other ways be completely flexible to do whatever is necessary whenever etc. All other things being equal, assumptions are made about a mother's ability to offer this level of accommodation. I'm not excusing this, just stating it as a reality in some business circumstances.
I agree here as well, which is what I was getting into before. Currently, it doesn't seem like "working mothers" is a big issue withing corporations, but it seems to be becoming an issue in society. I think HR personnel should start to consider this issue and work through ways of adivising staffing/hiring/whoever managers on how to change. Personally, I don't see managers/decision-makers waking up one morning and thinking "oh, perhaps I should drop my bias of assuming mothers will never be as efficient and committed as the others" without some sort of pressure from legislature or some sort of code of conduct written into the organization's code/handbook.
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Old 02-21-2006, 10:08 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic

a debate we've been having in several of my HRM classes lately about whether or not companies should be responsible for providing day care services or other services geared towards working parents.
Although intentions may have been otherwise, the reality of what ends up happening when some companies offer these services is that parents are enabled to work more...not be parents.
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Old 02-23-2006, 02:46 AM   #28
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Why would this only be an issue when hiring mothers and not with fathers?

I work with three single fathers. These guys hold the same positions as women at my company. I am willing to lay money on the table that the guys, these single fathers, are likely making more money than their female counterparts in the same positions, some of whom are single, and 2 who are married with kids!
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