Student Faces Criminal Charges, Dropped By Marines For Essay

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MrsSpringsteen

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I have never heard of anyone being charged criminally for creative writing. Is this a temporary thing because of VA Tech or will it become the norm? Sounds as if his future plans are down the drain. Would that writing indicate he needs any counseling? If anything I think that should be explored rather than criminal charges-but the teacher also told the students be creative with no judgment. If someone writes something like that, is it just creative or does it indicate underlying issues?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18353425/

CARY, Ill. - Allen Lee was on the verge of realizing a dream to become a Marine after signing enlistment papers this month. But one violent, profanity-laced English essay later, the 18-year-old’s future with the Marine Corps appears to be over.

Because of pending criminal charges stemming from his essay, Lee’s recruiter told him Friday that the Marine Corps has discharged him from his contract, said Sgt. Luis R. Agostini, spokesman for the Marine Corps Recruiting Station Chicago.

“Basically, he is no longer an applicant to become a Marine,” Agostini said.

The senior at suburban Cary-Grove High School was charged this week with two misdemeanor counts of disorderly conduct after the principal turned his creative writing essay over to police.


The essay, written Monday, reads in part, “Blood, sex and booze. Drugs, drugs, drugs are fun. Stab, stab, stab, stab, stab, s...t...a...b...puke. So I had this dream last night where I went into a building, pulled out two P90s and started shooting everyone, then had sex with the dead bodies. Well, not really, but it would be funny if I did.”
 
Y'know, you can't have it both ways. Everybody was screaming that "someone should have known" because the VT nutjob wrote such scary stuff. Now some poor asshole writes scary stuff, which is really more inappropriate than scary, and school officials react how outsiders wanted the VT officials to react, and now it's too much.

Everybody needs to make up their minds. Are school officials responsible for nutjobs or not?
 
^ They're not. This is kinda stupid. And how exactly can he be charged with a crime? Thank god it's a misdemeanor...imagine being in jail and being asked what you're in for, and all you've got is "I wrote this essay..."
 
I just read an article about a woman, about to graduate from college with a teaching degree/certificate who was not given that degree/certification because of a picture she posted on her Myspace page.

Here's the article:


MILLERSVILLE, Pa. - A woman denied a teaching degree on the eve of graduation because of a MySpace photo has sued the university.

Millersville University instead granted Stacy Snyder a degree in English last year after learning of her Web-published picture, which bore the caption "Drunken Pirate."

"I dreamed about being a teacher for a long time," said Snyder, 27, who now works as a nanny.

The photo, taken at a 2005 Halloween party, shows Snyder wearing a pirate hat while drinking from a plastic "Mr. Goodbar" cup. It was posted on her own MySpace site.

Although Snyder apologized, she learned the day before graduation that she would not be awarded an education degree or teaching certificate.

Jane S. Bray, dean of the School of Education, accused Snyder of promoting underage drinking, the suit states.

The federal lawsuit seeks at least $75,000 in damages. Millersville spokeswoman Janet Kacskos referred questions to a state System of Higher Education spokesman, who declined comment.

This seems absolutely absured to me. I don't get the "promoting underage drinking" bit at all...if she's 27 now and the photo was taken in 2005 she was no younger than 25 at that time. That just amazed me. :confused:

btw -- why I posted this here is I thought it was somewhat similar in that the school reactions seem excessive and reactionary.
 
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I'm guessing she wins (the suit). How the hell can they just deny her a degree, after she did the work for it? This reminds me of the Budweiser worker who got fired because a picture of him drinking a Miller appeared in the local paper. Just ridiculous.
 
While I don't think that they can withhold the degree if she met all of the criteria, I have heard of facebook and myspace photos being used by employers as reasons to not hire someone. Either don't post the photos or make your profile private so you control who gets to see them.
 
Quite frankly, when this is what he expresses publically given the task of creative writing, I think there is no place for him in the military.
Maybe he should think about a career as an author of gore movies or such, but not be trained by the marines.

I don't think the criminal charges are justified, but that in light of the VTech shootings teachers are a bit more careful and report such things should be far from excessive or reactionary.

However, the story indra posted is worrysome.
She was, as stated, at least 25 when she drank the alcohol, and it was in her freetime, at a party. Even if children were present there is no justification at all in denying her the teacher's degree.

The investigation done by US companies about their employees is a reason that would withhold me from working there.
They have no right to investigate into, spy, follow or whatsoever my private life.
And they have no say in what I do, take or use outside of my work time.
If I did illegal things, and they found out, fine.
As long as what I do is legal and doesn't cause trouble with my employer or harms my working performance it's not their f****** business.
 
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randhail said:
While I don't think that they can withhold the degree if she met all of the criteria, I have heard of facebook and myspace photos being used by employers as reasons to not hire someone.

I think that ridiculous too though. It was a freaking Halloween costume for Christ's sake. How in the world is a Halloween costume a problem? :mad:
 
indra said:


I think that ridiculous too though. It was a freaking Halloween costume for Christ's sake. How in the world is a Halloween costume a problem? :mad:


I don't disagree with you at all, it's just the current state of things that we really need to be careful of the things we post on the net.
 
randhail said:



I don't disagree with you at all, it's just the current state of things that we really need to be careful of the things we post on the net.

Yeah, that should generally be taken into account, as there are many crazy people around exploiting such sites, and all this "web2.0" mania, for their personal gain or pleasure. So people should be more careful about what they make available online in general.
However, I don't think that my future employer should spy after me on the net and use things against me.
Or at least, find a more creative reason why he decided not to employ me. :wink:
 
If anyone is at all worried about employment issues they should not have a MySpace or anything similar, in my opinion. They even look at those now when you apply for jobs. Even with no objectionable content, who is to say how someone could subjectively evaluate content that seems completely innocuous and possibly have subjective biases about it? Interviews can be subjective enough, why add to it?
 
MrsSpringsteen said:

The essay, written Monday, reads in part, “Blood, sex and booze. Drugs, drugs, drugs are fun. Stab, stab, stab, stab, stab, s...t...a...b...puke. So I had this dream last night where I went into a building, pulled out two P90s and started shooting everyone, then had sex with the dead bodies. Well, not really, but it would be funny if I did.”

I don't see how something like that can just be ignored and passed off as simply being creative writing, especially with all that has been going on in recent years...and just earlier this month.

When I was in high school, I was going to confirmation classes at my church every week. We were given a creative writing assignment where we had to write what a "dream day" for us would entail. I read mine first...it was fairly silly, I remember it involved Pez and Bono. Everybody was laughing. Then another person went. He said that he would get a gun and go to school and shoot everybody he hates. He then pointed at me, and said, "I'd shoot you first. I hate you."

I sat there stunned for a second before I just got up and walked out of class. The police were called, and he got suspended from school.

I realize there is a bit of a difference, since he actually a direct threat towards me...but I think that things have gotten even worse than when I was in high school. People have to be even more cautious.

If that kid is a straight A student, I would think he would have enough sense to realize that penning something like that wouldn't/couldn't/shouldn't just be passed off as a simple creative writing exercise and left at that. That's disturbing.

Flashing back to high school again, I used to belong to the school's writing/poetry club. My writing had a tendency to be dark, I was pretty depressed. I used to write things that sometimes, frustratingly, got me sent to the counselor's office, as they feared I would hurt or kill myself. As annoyed by it as I was, I now see why it's important for things like that to be taken note of...especially when those thoughts are directed at others as well (for the record, I never wrote about hurting or killing others).
 
MrsSpringsteen said:
If anyone is at all worried about employment issues they should not have a MySpace or anything similar, in my opinion. They even look at those now when you apply for jobs. Even with no objectionable content, who is to say how someone could subjectively evaluate content that seems completely innocuous and possibly have subjective biases about it? Interviews can be subjective enough, why add to it?

Do you include posting on bulletin boards in your "what not to do" list? Let's face it, much of what people poost on here could make a potential employer think twice about hiring someone. Or do you think they just won't know about these? I mean think about it -- to a certain type of person you could come across as a ball buster.
 
I locked both my Myspace and my LiveJournal before I went on the academic job market. Granted, I'm applying for college jobs, but I didn't want to take any chances. People so often forget that the internet is a public domain, and that even if they use a screen name or an alias, they can still give themselves away in other ways.

I have to laugh that the articles I've written for Interference are some of the first things that come up when you Google me. I wonder if they'll help me get a job? :wink:
 
Re: Re: Student Faces Criminal Charges, Dropped By Marines For Essay

Bonochick said:


I don't see how something like that can just be ignored and passed off as simply being creative writing, especially with all that has been going on in recent years...and just earlier this month.

When I was in high school, I was going to confirmation classes at my church every week. We were given a creative writing assignment where we had to write what a "dream day" for us would entail. I read mine first...it was fairly silly, I remember it involved Pez and Bono. Everybody was laughing. Then another person went. He said that he would get a gun and go to school and shoot everybody he hates. He then pointed at me, and said, "I'd shoot you first. I hate you."

I sat there stunned for a second before I just got up and walked out of class. The police were called, and he got suspended from school.

I realize there is a bit of a difference, since he actually a direct threat towards me...but I think that things have gotten even worse than when I was in high school. People have to be even more cautious.

If that kid is a straight A student, I would think he would have enough sense to realize that penning something like that wouldn't/couldn't/shouldn't just be passed off as a simple creative writing exercise and left at that. That's disturbing.

Flashing back to high school again, I used to belong to the school's writing/poetry club. My writing had a tendency to be dark, I was pretty depressed. I used to write things that sometimes, frustratingly, got me sent to the counselor's office, as they feared I would hurt or kill myself. As annoyed by it as I was, I now see why it's important for things like that to be taken note of...especially when those thoughts are directed at others as well (for the record, I never wrote about hurting or killing others).

I think all the kid can be accused of is crap writing...I mean should the writers of the Saw movies, for instance, be all sent to get psychiatric help?

People making direct threats like the one against you do need help....I would only advise counselling or an assessment of mental health for kids if there is a pattern of disturbed writing.
 
That was rude indra, don't go inviting a fight over nothing.
 
Re: Re: Re: Student Faces Criminal Charges, Dropped By Marines For Essay

LJT said:


I think all the kid can be accused of is crap writing...I mean should the writers of the Saw movies, for instance, be all sent to get psychiatric help?

That is a pretty fine point, I must say. :hmm: I like the Saw movies, but if there was some high schooler who aspired to be a filmmaker, and a script he'd written of that nature was found...yeah, that wouldn't go over well.
 
As I said I think you have to look for a consistency in style...if it's all the kid is writing, and if similar themes are in each piece, and also if there are indicators outside of a person's writing......then some counselling may be recommended.
 
yolland said:
That was rude indra, don't go inviting a fight over nothing.

It wasn't meant to be rude. No fight intended. It was a serious question. Think about it -- Mrs. Springsteen posts often about sexual hassassment on here (not harrassment on this board, but about it, and on this board). There are people in this world -- some of them employers -- who might very well look at that and think "whoa! I don't want to hire her, she could be trouble." That's what I meant by being considered a ball buster. I mean, really if someone can be denied a degree (or a teaching certificate) because of a Halloween picture, do you really think there aren't people who would find (even not officially) reason not to hire her (or any of us) for the views she (and all of us too) posts on here?
 
As for Mr. Lee's case, I think it's definitely an overreaction...I can understand the case Bonochick mentioned because that involved a direct threat, and I also think it's appropriate as far as it goes for creative writing instructors to discuss it with administrators if they suspect a student's writing underscores psychological problems that shouldn't be ignored, but equating results like Mr. Lee's from one "no boundaries" creative assignment with criminal disorderly conduct seems unnervingly over-the-top, unless there was a lot more to it than what that article mentions. Even Cho Seung-Hui's Virginia Tech professors emphasized that it was a pattern of apparently rage-fueled violent writing PLUS abnormal behavior in person that motivated them to take action, not simply the turning in of one gruesome or highly vulgar assignment, which as several of them pointed out happens often enough.

The MySpace case seems ridiculous also, but this isn't the first time we've seen stories of teachers fired for conduct that wasn't criminal and had nothing to do with their professional roles.
 
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I think indra brings up an outstanding point, at least from the point of view of my field of work.

Since I work in IT and web design and have a degree concentrated on public relations and marketing, I'm very very aware and careful of everything I post online on any site or journal. Most of my co-workers are aware of my Photo Journal and other sites. Part of the reason why I changed my username here was because of the Interference article that went up that had my full name and my username in the same sentence. I Google myself every once in a while and make sure all the hits are legit and things that I wouldn't mind employers or future employers seeing. In fact, I throw my name very small at the bottom of all of my sites so that they can see my work coming up on Google. I operate under the assumption that my boss could easily be reading this post. I've sort of gotten used to this since my mom and my aunts read my blog, my husband and my best friends are Interferencers, so I can't really talk shit about people and expect to get away with it, just like in "real life".
 
I wonder, too, how much recent events will impact the role of creative writing courses in students' college education. My degree will be in English with an emphasis on creative writing; my dissertation is a novel, and I'm already getting very frustrated by the look I get from other academics, as if my work is "neat," but not necessarily meant to be taken seriously. And really I feel like that's the way many academics and administrators feel about creative writing as a discipline.

Creative writing makes students pay attention to both the world around them and their inner world in a way that no other class ever will. Students let things come out in their creative writing that they wouldn't ever let slip in a critical essay. Their insecurities, their fears, their frustrations, experiences that have traumatized them. Granted, I get quite a few lousy stories and poems about huge parties and puppy love and things like that, but I challenge those students to dig deeper. I don't censor my students, though I do tell them that gratuitous sex/violence/bad language/drug or alcohol use etc. needs to serve a purpose in the story, and that it can't just be for shock value. It can't just be a way of trying to distract readers from the fact that the piece doesn't have substance. I've never had a student whose work has made me uncomfortable. I've suggested counseling to several students based on the feelings they expressed in their writing, but nothing beyond that.

It's always interesting to me to see what students reveal in their writing that they don't realize, too. For instance, if a student's characters do or say something that seems racist, homophobic, sexist, or otherwise discriminatory, I mark the passage and ask a question about it. Sometimes the student intends that and uses it in the story (showing the consequences of such action or speech), but often a student has no idea he or she is writing in a way that could be deemed offensive.

Ideally, students will learn from that moment and will look more closely at the way they think of others. I think creative writing encourages that kind of self-examination. In a time when it seems like we fear differences, I think it's not only valuable but necessary for students to examine their values and their understanding of the world in this way.

I'll put my soap box away now :wink:
 
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