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Old 05-12-2003, 06:50 PM   #16
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One of the chaperones took them. This sounds like the case of a parent that prefers to be a friend rather than a chaperone. The kids should be suspended, not expelled, and chances are they lost their scholarships because they were not playing against anyone, therefore, how could their abilities be evaluated.

The only person I feel for here is the coach.
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Old 05-12-2003, 07:26 PM   #17
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Sharky,

I agree it was wrong for the students to break the law by entering a strip club where they were underage. The students must be punished in some way.

Other than that, why are you concerned about the way the boys treat the girls at their school? Why does their going to a strip club suggest to you that they do not treat the girls at their school well? If the girls had done something on a similar level, would you be concerned about their treatment of the boys? Their not adults of course, but I think we may be a little judgemental about certain types of adult activity and their relevance to other behavior and activity.
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Old 05-12-2003, 07:32 PM   #18
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I think this is absolutely inappropriate and, moreover, everyone shares the blame here--minors or not, these "kids" were old enough to know better.

All I can say is that my women's choir in high school never got to go to Chippendales.
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Old 05-12-2003, 08:13 PM   #19
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First off, I think it is preposterous to assume that men who go to a strip club, particularly in a group context like that, somehow treat women negatively. The "group context" is something I particularly emphasize, because I have a feeling that quite a few just went to be social, rather than being enthusiastically in favor of going to a strip club--especially when you have a chaperone going with you. I probably know what I would have done in such a situation, and I probably would have been peer pressured into going, even though I have honestly zero interest and gratification from those kind of places.

The fact of the matter is that "boys will be boys," and I think that in this politically correct, post-feminist society, men get a disproportionate rap on behavior, out of vengeance. It's not okay for men to have pornographic magazines, but its perfectly proper for women to have graphic romance novels? I've seen enough "proper" old ladies carrying these around. Visuals are to men what text is to women, as research suggests. I stand by my statement that this is preposterous--political correctness gone too far, and I think it is about time we lightened up in this so-called "free" nation.

There are many other more minor punishments that would have been appropriate---perhaps detention, perhaps community service, perhaps "sensitivity training." Whatever. I think what did happen was too extreme; a knee-jerk reaction from moralist society.

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Old 05-13-2003, 04:17 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Other than that, why are you concerned about the way the boys treat the girls at their school? Why does their going to a strip club suggest to you that they do not treat the girls at their school well? If the girls had done something on a similar level, would you be concerned about their treatment of the boys? Their not adults of course, but I think we may be a little judgemental about certain types of adult activity and their relevance to other behavior and activity.
I know your question wasn't addressed to me, but I find it interesting so I'll reply anyway.

I do think strip clubs encourage men to have little respect for women. Strip clubs objectify women, they encourage men to see women as simply being there for men's gratification, they encourage men to see women just for what they look like and not for who they are. In addition, I'm concerned by the fact that in areas where a strip club/lap dancing club is located, there is an increase in violent attacks on women, I think that says a lot about the attitude some strip club patrons have towards women.

I'm not suggesting strip clubs should be banned, nor am I suggesting that every man who visits a strip club has a lack of respect for women. However, I do believe that men who have a decent attitude towards women, that is see them as an individual who is to be respected and valued for all their talents not simply their appearance, would be unlikely to attend a strip club which very clearly does not treat women with that level of respect.

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Old 05-13-2003, 10:08 AM   #21
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these kids are still allowed to graduate and get their degree. the underclassmen will be allowed to participate in athletics again in the next year. i have no problem with strip clubs, other than the fact they charge 8 bucks for a bud (um... so i've been told... yeahhh... that's it...). but anyone who can't see that kids... and may i stress KIDS... should not be attending strip clubs on a school trip is just completely out of their mind. that's not a question of morality or political correctness, that's just plain old common sense.
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Old 05-13-2003, 10:21 AM   #22
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Headache.
I don't thinkanyone was suggesting it was OKAY for the kids to attend a strip club, rather people agreed it was wrong but thought maybe the punishment was somewhat disproportionate to the offence.
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Old 05-13-2003, 10:41 AM   #23
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Melon -- I respect you and your opinion alot, but I REALLY don't agree with you. Look at the case in Northbrook, Ill. that involved the hazing of junior girls by senior girls. Now imagine if those were guys. Would there be calls for expulsions or people saying "boys will be boys"? Unfortunately, I think it would be the latter.

I'm not so much as angry with the school's handling of the situation as I am with the parents' handling of the situation. If this involved a girls softball team going to a male strip club, parents would be pissed. How could their daughters do that? How could chaperones corrupt their daughters like that? But these fathers on TV all act like its just a boys thing.

On a side note, after going to a public middle school and all-girls high school, I can tell you there is a bias toward boys in public schools -- and I've been backed up by studies to that effect. Teachers call on boys more often, ask their opinions more often and encourage them more to speak up. I also benefited socially from going to an all-girls school. No boys to cat call me in the hall, no boys snapping my bra strap, no boys making lewd advances toward me [all of which happened in middle school]. This case just seems to be another extension of the sociological sexism that goes on at schools.

I agree, Melon, that porn doesn't always make a boy evil. But there is a difference between a high school guy going to a strip club and a 30-year-old going to a strip club. And there is a differce between parents supporting the improper behavior of underage children and an adult making their own decision.
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Old 05-13-2003, 11:06 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
Melon -- I respect you and your opinion alot, but I REALLY don't agree with you. Look at the case in Northbrook, Ill. that involved the hazing of junior girls by senior girls. Now imagine if those were guys. Would there be calls for expulsions or people saying "boys will be boys"? Unfortunately, I think it would be the latter.
I do not discriminate. If this were a case of guys beating each other senseless like in the case with the girls, I would treat them exactly the same: suspension / expulsion. Likewise, if the girls went to a male strip club, I would say the same thing: the punishment is too harsh.

Quote:
I'm not so much as angry with the school's handling of the situation as I am with the parents' handling of the situation. If this involved a girls softball team going to a male strip club, parents would be pissed. How could their daughters do that? How could chaperones corrupt their daughters like that? But these fathers on TV all act like its just a boys thing.
LOL...moral outrage crusades make me laugh. However, I think the opposite would happen. It would have turned into a "girls night out" that was perfectly innocent. The guys just get turned into perverts.

The difference of treatment in media portrayal is clear. Strip clubs that men (who are portrayed as "crude") frequent are "sleazy" and the women are "dirty whores." Strip clubs that women (who are portrayed as "yuppies") frequent are "fun" and the men are "cute."

Quote:
On a side note, after going to a public middle school and all-girls high school, I can tell you there is a bias toward boys in public schools -- and I've been backed up by studies to that effect. Teachers call on boys more often, ask their opinions more often and encourage them more to speak up. I also benefited socially from going to an all-girls school. No boys to cat call me in the hall, no boys snapping my bra strap, no boys making lewd advances toward me [all of which happened in middle school]. This case just seems to be another extension of the sociological sexism that goes on at schools.
I went to private, co-ed elementary and high schools. Honestly, looking back, I think that uniforms and same-sex schools aren't necessarily bad ideas, but I don't think that the latter is necessary to stop the abuse. Private schools just have more liberties to discipline than public schools do, since public schools are held hostage by irritable parents (who sometimes have the intellect of a brick themselves) and a sue-happy environment.

To be honest, you couldn't pay me to send my children to a public school someday; I won't have children until I can afford to send them somewhere private.

Quote:
I agree, Melon, that porn doesn't always make a boy evil. But there is a difference between a high school guy going to a strip club and a 30-year-old going to a strip club. And there is a differce between parents supporting the improper behavior of underage children and an adult making their own decision.
And there is a difference between a punishment and going overboard. It's like finding a tiny hole at the bottom of the boat, and, rather than plugging the hole, you panic and sink the ship.

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Old 05-13-2003, 01:02 PM   #25
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Its not so much the harsh punishment from the school I worry about though. Its the lack of harsh punishment from the parents. If I went to a male strip club on a school trip when I was 17, I would never be let out of the house again. My parents would so not think of it as a "girls night out."

btw, I've been to a Chippendales show [when I was 22 and the tickets were free]. The women there were sleazy and the male strippers were hardly cute. So frankly, Melon, there is no difference between a male or female strip club.
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Old 05-13-2003, 01:31 PM   #26
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Fizzing,

"I do think strip clubs encourage men to have little respect for women. Strip clubs objectify women, they encourage men to see women as simply being there for men's gratification, they encourage men to see women just for what they look like and not for who they are. In addition, I'm concerned by the fact that in areas where a strip club/lap dancing club is located, there is an increase in violent attacks on women, I think that says a lot about the attitude some strip club patrons have towards women."

"I'm not suggesting strip clubs should be banned, nor am I suggesting that every man who visits a strip club has a lack of respect for women. However, I do believe that men who have a decent attitude towards women, that is see them as an individual who is to be respected and valued for all their talents not simply their appearance, would be unlikely to attend a strip club which very clearly does not treat women with that level of respect."

The objectification/gratification arguement could be extended to so many things. Movies and TV for example. Typically, your not going to be a movie or TV star if your not above average in physical attraction. There are exceptions to that rule, but thats generally the case with Movies, TV, and media. I don't like it, because I think it should be based strictly on acting talent. But the fact of the matter is, the objectification/gratification process you say takes place in strip clubs also takes place almost every night in front of the family TV. Millions of people are choosing to watch and see things based often sometimes on physical attraction.

Is it wrong when the Women(or men) here at FYM objectify the members of U2 in a forum like Pleba? I don't think Pleba is really about understanding U2s music, its looking lustfully at pictures of the band. Do you condemn a girl for getting into U2 because she thought Bono was cute and had a great ass?

But one theme running through the strip clubs, TV and movies, and Pleba, is that none of it is personal. Most people at a strip club are experiencing the same thing when they see someone really attractive on TV(well maybe not in some cases). It does not make them any more likely to go out and abuse a man or a women than TV/Movies and what they experience in daily life.

I know there are some who will say that strip clubs are different because people are completely naked and so on. Kind of suggesting that objectivication/gratification thing is always greater in that contexts, when in fact a person can experience a greater intensity of lusts from looking at a person with their clothes on. Complete nudity can actually be a turn off.

People make unconcious judgements about physical attraction all the time. Thats only a problem if the person uses that to base who they talk too, become friends with, or even fall in love with. No one is going to a strip club for any of those things. They are there for entertainment strictly, just like all the girls who flock to see Leonardo or Brad Pitt in their next movie. Sometimes I think your more likely to get an honest answer from a guy, about Brad Pitts acting ability, than a women.
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Old 05-13-2003, 01:56 PM   #27
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Quote:
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The objectification/gratification arguement could be extended to so many things. Movies and TV for example. Typically, your not going to be a movie or TV star if your not above average in physical attraction.
I watch tv shows and films for so many reasons - sometimes because they're funny and sometimes because they're entertaining, sometimes because the acting is good or the show is well-written.

Oppositely, men attend strip clubs for one reason: to watch naked or semi-naked women dance in front of them.

Quote:
But the fact of the matter is, the objectification/gratification process you say takes place in strip clubs also takes place almost every night in front of the family TV. Millions of people are choosing to watch and see things based often sometimes on physical attraction.


Sure I sometimes watch a film because it has one of my favourite actors in, sometimes because I think that actor is good looking. However, I don't watch films in order to imagine what that actor looks like without his clothes on and I don't watch films in order to obtain some kind of sexual gratification.

Strip clubs are based entirely on sexual gratification. Men don't care if the women there are good actors or if the dancing is well choreographed, they only care if the woman looks attractive.

Besides, do you reach into the tv and grab hold of the actors there? No, yet that happens in strip clubs. Do you pay additional money to entice film actors to remove their clothes? No, but it happens in strip clubs.

I don't pretend there aren't problems with gratuitous sex and violence in the entertainment industry, but to compare watching a tv show with attending a strip club is simply wrong in my opinion.

Quote:
Most people at a strip club are experiencing the same thing when they see someone really attractive on TV(well maybe not in some cases). It does not make them any more likely to go out and abuse a man or a women than TV/Movies and what they experience in daily life.


Wow, you must have fun watching television!

If strip clubs don't mean people are more likely to abuse women, then tell me why there is frequently an increase in sexual violence in areas where strip clubs are located.

Besides, your defence of strip clubs does not even take into account the experiences of the women who work there. Many women are forced into jobs such as stripping because it's the only way they can earn money to survive. Strip clubs are often horribly exploitative of the women who work there but because it's very rare for strip clubs to have union representation, women who complain about this treatment will simply be fired.

Strip clubs aren't just another innocuous form of entertainment like film or television: they're about the objectification of women for men's sexual gratification and they are symptomatic of a society which consistently sees women as somehow inferior to men and existing only to provide gratification for men.
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Old 05-13-2003, 02:09 PM   #28
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I agree with melon on every point 110%.

If I had teenaged kids I'd probably encourage them or take them myself to a strip club just to satisfy their curiousity. Maybe. I'd think about it anyway. I'd also allow my boys to have porn magazines and put a lock on their bedroom door.
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Old 05-13-2003, 03:28 PM   #29
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Originally posted by sharky
btw, I've been to a Chippendales show [when I was 22 and the tickets were free]. The women there were sleazy and the male strippers were hardly cute. So frankly, Melon, there is no difference between a male or female strip club.
I understand that, but I was referring to media representation influencing our ideas of what is "acceptable" and "unacceptable." As we can see, reality often does not meet up with the media.

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Old 05-13-2003, 03:30 PM   #30
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
If strip clubs don't mean people are more likely to abuse women, then tell me why there is frequently an increase in sexual violence in areas where strip clubs are located.
I think it has everything to do with the kind of people who frequent these clubs, rather than the clubs influencing behavior. I guess it a matter of what comes first: the chicken or the egg.

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