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Old 11-04-2004, 02:09 AM   #106
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There can be time for appropriate usage of Nazism within a debate, for instance if we were to be discussion social and political movements within Europe during the 1930's but when it is uncalled - as most people would think here is - for it violates Goodwin's Law, basically the person who uses a comparison to Nazism, Hitler etc. in their argument first forfeits by default and has literally lost the argument.
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Old 11-04-2004, 04:50 AM   #107
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i think there is a corellation between cloning embryos
that it devalues life
as
the nazis devalued life.

and they would have cloned if they had the wherewithwal.

many feel embrionic s cell research is preciptious this way and points us in a wrong direction.

thats all.

ive been respectful in trying to articulate those points.

peace,
db9
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Old 11-04-2004, 06:37 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
no.
it's not delusional.
the nazis would have did anything to advance their race.
whats delusional is u trying to deny that if they had the know how in the 1940s, the understanding and working of dna that they wouldn't of embraced cloning.
not only is that delusional for u to reject that concept, even more it's naive on your part.

i will stick w my speculation.
the only reason the nazis did not clone, is because they didnt know how.

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Go back and reread all my posts. I never said that had the Nazis the knowledge of DNA that they wouldn't have cloned. All I'm trying to tell you is that a) they didn't have the capabilities b) they were light years away from being able to do so c) you can't speculate on what they 'might have done.' What if they had the capabilties for the atomic bomb before the americans did, huh? or had they resources to shoot hings out into space? or the capabilties for mass chemical warfare? There are A LOT of things the Nazis could have done with their genetic information, had they obtained it, and it's poor logic to simply assume that they would have used it to make copies of themselves. DON'T call me naive because I'm looking at blatant facts. I'm not the one speculating here.

Nazis devalued life, but then again, so have the KKK, Islamic extremists, political extremists (let's look at Northern Ireland), the Hutus of Rwanda, Christian fundamentalists...in fact, you could easily look at anyone who's ever killed and say they devalued life. American civil war. The Crusades. So what would you do? Exprapolate and say that all these groups, of had the genetic capabilies would have cloned?

Let's go a step further, shall we? You claim the Nazis devalued life, therefore the desired cloning. What about you, diamond? Or anyone who's ever devalued life? I guarentee everyone at some point had devalued a life, whether it be through their actions or beliefs...does this mean we all desire to have clones of ourselves running around? I think not. Correlations rarely mean anything. Scientists have drawn correlations between smoking and poverty. Does this mean smoking causes poverty? Or does povery cause smoking?

Back to the Nazis. Did you know that Hitler actually had no plans for total European domination, but wanted to share the world with Britain and Italy? But that Britain turned him down? What IF England hadn't? Would the Nazis have committed their crimes? Would they have devauled life? There's even reason to believe, through documented evidence, I wouldn't speculate) that Hitler had no plans for extermination of the Jews prior to 1942. What is circumstances had changed? Would the Nazis have devalued life?

What if...what if....the Nazis had joined with England and Italy and held Europe. Would anyone have fought it? What if, then, they would have found DNA? Would the Nazis have used it for evil? What if the Enlish had found it first? Would THEY have used it for evil? What if they had decided had decided to make genetically modified rabbits that could survive extensive periods of time udnerground in order to deliver radioactive chemicals to water supply systems in Eastern Europe? Is THAT plausible???

There are too many questions that can't be answered about the past. We can't necessarily guess as to what they would have done because quite simply, we just don't know.
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Old 11-04-2004, 08:22 AM   #109
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i don't think i have poor logic.
i do think u are angry though.

so peace,
db9
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Old 11-04-2004, 08:25 AM   #110
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Diamond, and all,

I'd like to remind everyone about the use of the term 'nazi' on this site...

http://forum.interference.com/showth...highlight=nazi

AND

http://forum.interference.com/showth...highlight=nazi


Comparing those that support embrionic stem cell research to Nazis is NOT ok here. For one, I support it, and I had family slaughtered by the Nazis. I do NOT appreciate this baseless association, Diamond. Thats like saying that people who like tattooing others are just like the Nazis as well... because they used to tattoo people, then skin them, and keep human tattooed flesh as 'art'.

I am not posting this in public to embarrass Diamond, nor pick on him, but to remind everyone about our policy about this.
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Old 11-04-2004, 09:09 AM   #111
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Ok point taken Joel.
You may have supported in your state however the majority of Ameicans oppose it.
Perhaps the comparison made was a reach.

The reason Americans oppose the practice of e-cell research and cloning is that it's their tax dollars they feel are being ill spent for unethical medical reasons and morality reasons.

On the other hand the scientists and researchers are trying to sell it as 'compassionate research' and so far it's a no-sale in America.

I heard you had GW Bush stickers lying around your house, what's up w that?

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Old 11-04-2004, 11:36 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Ok point taken Joel.
You may have supported in your state however the majority of Ameicans oppose it.
Perhaps the comparison made was a reach.

The reason Americans oppose the practice of e-cell research and cloning is that it's their tax dollars they feel are being ill spent for unethical medical reasons and morality reasons.

On the other hand the scientists and researchers are trying to sell it as 'compassionate research' and so far it's a no-sale in America.

I heard you had GW Bush stickers lying around your house, what's up w that?

db9
I actually voted against the California proposition because it specifcially prohibited certain types of research. It was a Trojan Horse as most of these props. are, and I'm actually very dissapointed that it passed because of this.

I really am not one to go with the majority, or not... because the majority often base their decisions on ignorance, buzz clips, etc. No mob mentality for me, thank you.

And by the way... if people have a problem with the Govt spending their tax dollars in unethical and immoral reasons they've missed the boat. People seem to either turn a blind eye to most everything, or are happy being ignorant and not knowing what REALLY goes on.

As for the GW stickers you sent me, they promptly found a new home in the round file Although I did keep the 'Diamond' newsletter for laughs. Thanks
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Old 11-04-2004, 11:56 AM   #113
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a creepy aspect of this is that I see poor women selling their harvested eggs for profit for research.
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:00 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elvis
Diamond, and all,

I'd like to remind everyone about the use of the term 'nazi' on this site...

http://forum.interference.com/showth...highlight=nazi

AND

http://forum.interference.com/showth...highlight=nazi


Comparing those that support embrionic stem cell research to Nazis is NOT ok here. For one, I support it, and I had family slaughtered by the Nazis. I do NOT appreciate this baseless association, Diamond. Thats like saying that people who like tattooing others are just like the Nazis as well... because they used to tattoo people, then skin them, and keep human tattooed flesh as 'art'.

I am not posting this in public to embarrass Diamond, nor pick on him, but to remind everyone about our policy about this.
i fully agree with this here, and would like if the mods could put an end to the people around here comparing the bush administration to nazis, as well.
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:31 PM   #115
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Actually, I don't see the problem with using the word Nazi here. No one's calling anyone a Nazi. If we're discussing the politics of Nazi party between the years 1933-1945, then there IS no problem. I for one, will continue to use the word Nazi here as I don't feel anyone has violated any rules.

Diamond, I'm angry because you insist you're right over an argument that can never be proven. It's blind faith in something that is illogical, without ever considering the alternatives.
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Old 11-04-2004, 01:47 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally posted by IndyGoGirl
a creepy aspect of this is that I see poor women selling their harvested eggs for profit for research.

is it any less creepy that men sell their sperm? Thats been going on for YEARS.
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Old 11-04-2004, 01:52 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally posted by The_Sweetest_Thing
Actually, I don't see the problem with using the word Nazi here. No one's calling anyone a Nazi. If we're discussing the politics of Nazi party between the years 1933-1945, then there IS no problem. I for one, will continue to use the word Nazi here as I don't feel anyone has violated any rules.

Diamond, I'm angry because you insist you're right over an argument that can never be proven. It's blind faith in something that is illogical, without ever considering the alternatives.
i didnt mean to make u angry
the things that are proven are:

e cells have cured nobody.
adult stem cell thearpies have bettered many ppl's lives.

and harvesting and killing embryos for an unproven science creeps a lot us us out.

joel was a clump of cells before
you were a clump of cells once before
arun was a clump of cells..

we all were.

going in and playing God scares alot of us.

thats all.

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Old 11-04-2004, 01:57 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally posted by The_Sweetest_Thing
Actually, I don't see the problem with using the word Nazi here. No one's calling anyone a Nazi. If we're discussing the politics of Nazi party between the years 1933-1945, then there IS no problem. I for one, will continue to use the word Nazi here as I don't feel anyone has violated any rules.
Reading and understanding what I've said are important.

Diamond compared Nazis with those who want embrionic stem cell research.

The two threads I posted links to are rules/policies of this forum. Since some people may not have been around when they were more visible, I have posted the links to remind people of them. If you feel that you must use the word 'Nazi' please make sure that you understand our policies on the topic and make an effort to comply.

Calling someone a Nazi, comparing someone to Nazis, etc... unless they are/were a Nazi is not ok. Talking about Nazi politics, like you mentioned in a historical sense, is obviously ok. Posting neo-Nazi propaganda is not OK. Get it?
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Old 11-04-2004, 02:04 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
going in and playing God scares alot of us.

But yet most of the country has absolutely no problem spending their tax dollars on weapons that can wipe out entire cities. Is that not also 'playing God'?

What about genetic engineering of food?

or

What about curing diseases... wouldnt that be 'playing god' as well since those people would die if it were not for medical technology?

Diamond, no one has said that embrionic stem cell research = creating an army of human clones.... and legislation could approve of embrionic stem cell research , yet prohibit cloning (like that has now passed in California).
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Old 11-04-2004, 02:21 PM   #120
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no most of the proponents of e cell research are in favor of cloning embryos.

thats the playing god part and the master race connection.
maybe a leap i dunno.

its scary stuff.

im saying ppl who want to clone remind me of the master race folk that we had to knock out about 65 yrs ago
thats all.
it's preceptious.

and cloned animals havn't faired to well, how could cloned embrionic cells really help us?

where's Dolly the cloned sheep these days?

just asking everybody to think.

thats all.

peace,


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