Stem Cell Research. The Real Deal and the Hype.

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I'm not denying that. The man would brutally murder a twin to see what would happen to the other. Or kill both and invesitgate their internal organs to see how similar they were (between twins).

however, yeah, the nazis were aiming for eugenics.

My point was, no one was tring to clone Hitler. This isn't the boys from Brazil.
 
^Exactly - comparisons between the Nazi's goal of racial purity and using embryonic stem cells to cure diseases are false.
 
I never implied the nazis knew about DNA.
Sweetest Thing and Anitram inferred that I did however.
Their assumption is inncorrect.

I will make the leap and speculate had they had a way to clone they would have.

db9
 
Can you define cloning for me, please?

There is a protein, let's call it X, and we think it is upregulated in cancer cells.

So, we take the protein's sequence, we insert it into a vector. This is CLONING. Then we put the vector into a cell (transfect the cell) and then we compare normal cells to cancer cells to cells with the artificially overexpressing protein. This is how cancer is studied. This is how cancer therapy is developed (to block expression of proteins, you need cloned cell lines.)

THIS IS CLONING.

This is to you, immoral.

Shall we immediately cease and desist all cancer therapy tomorrow?
 
diamond said:
I never implied the nazis knew about DNA.
Sweetest Thing and Anitram inferred that I did however.
Their assumption is inncorrect.

I will make the leap and speculate had they had a way to clone they would have.

db9
Click to expand...

*ahem* in assuming they wanted to clone, you assume they knew about DNA. There IS no other way to clone, outside of science fiction.

You speculate they HAD A WAY TO CLONE? What??? What do you think? That somewhere in some secret Nazi lab, they had a machine where someone walked in and then a direct copy of him/her popped out the other end???
 
anitram-
i speak of cloning embyros.


im also not doing this thread to pick on you.
youre pretty bright for a canadian,;)
but on this issue, i disagree w you.

peace,

db9
 
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The_Sweetest_Thing said:


*ahem* in assuming they wanted to clone, you assume they knew about DNA. There IS no other way to clone, outside of science fiction.

You speculate they HAD A WAY TO CLONE? What??? What do you think? That somewhere in some secret Nazi lab, they had a machine where someone walked in and then a direct copy of him/her popped out the other end???
Click to expand...

the nazis didn't know about DNA.
had they known of DNA yes their wet dream would have been to clone their race.

what's so difficult in understanding that Sw.Thing?

db9
 
diamond said:

had they known of DNA yes their wet dream would have been to clone their race.
Click to expand...

they would have had the dream of cloning???

Or so you speculate? You do realize that this is all delusional speculation, right? Because unless you were a Nazi involved in eugenics experiments during the second world war yourself or have direct prood, it would be impossible to know what their 'dream' was. I could just as easily speculate that had the Nazis known about DNA they may have wished to discover the exact gene that made people 'Jewish' and alter it to create pure Nazis.

Speculation isn't proof for any argument Diamond.
 
no.
it's not delusional.
the nazis would have did anything to advance their race.
whats delusional is u trying to deny that if they had the know how in the 1940s, the understanding and working of dna that they wouldn't of embraced cloning.
not only is that delusional for u to reject that concept, even more it's naive on your part.

i will stick w my speculation.
the only reason the nazis did not clone, is because they didnt know how.

peace,
db9
 
Well the Nazi's spent money on their millitary and America spends money on its millitary, that kills people therefore we should eliminate the millitary.

I know more than I care to about the Nazi regime and its horrors that it inflicted and your argument here is downright offensive, what are you trying to prove by saying that if the Nazi's had todays knowledge of genetics they would use it for evil, is it trying to make a faux moral equivalence between science working to understand the mechanisms in the hope of finding cures for disease and the grotesque experiments in a Nazi hell. What is the bloody point.
 
A_Wanderer said:
What is the bloody point.
Click to expand...

Comparisons to Nazism have been made in the past here on Interference. It's never served any other purpose than to get a rise out of people, usually when there’s not much chance of winning the debate on arguments. I believe the moderators have addressed this in the past prohibiting the use of the word Nazi in the debates. I even remember Diamond supporting this, though it has to be said that Bush and his buddies were usually on the receiving end. I’m surprised the moderators haven’t commented on this thread yet.
 
There can be time for appropriate usage of Nazism within a debate, for instance if we were to be discussion social and political movements within Europe during the 1930's but when it is uncalled - as most people would think here is - for it violates Goodwin's Law, basically the person who uses a comparison to Nazism, Hitler etc. in their argument first forfeits by default and has literally lost the argument.
 
i think there is a corellation between cloning embryos
that it devalues life
as
the nazis devalued life.

and they would have cloned if they had the wherewithwal.

many feel embrionic s cell research is preciptious this way and points us in a wrong direction.

thats all.

ive been respectful in trying to articulate those points.

peace,
db9
 
diamond said:
no.
it's not delusional.
the nazis would have did anything to advance their race.
whats delusional is u trying to deny that if they had the know how in the 1940s, the understanding and working of dna that they wouldn't of embraced cloning.
not only is that delusional for u to reject that concept, even more it's naive on your part.

i will stick w my speculation.
the only reason the nazis did not clone, is because they didnt know how.

peace,
db9
Click to expand...

Go back and reread all my posts. I never said that had the Nazis the knowledge of DNA that they wouldn't have cloned. All I'm trying to tell you is that a) they didn't have the capabilities b) they were light years away from being able to do so c) you can't speculate on what they 'might have done.' What if they had the capabilties for the atomic bomb before the americans did, huh? or had they resources to shoot hings out into space? or the capabilties for mass chemical warfare? There are A LOT of things the Nazis could have done with their genetic information, had they obtained it, and it's poor logic to simply assume that they would have used it to make copies of themselves. DON'T call me naive because I'm looking at blatant facts. I'm not the one speculating here.

Nazis devalued life, but then again, so have the KKK, Islamic extremists, political extremists (let's look at Northern Ireland), the Hutus of Rwanda, Christian fundamentalists...in fact, you could easily look at anyone who's ever killed and say they devalued life. American civil war. The Crusades. So what would you do? Exprapolate and say that all these groups, of had the genetic capabilies would have cloned?

Let's go a step further, shall we? You claim the Nazis devalued life, therefore the desired cloning. What about you, diamond? Or anyone who's ever devalued life? I guarentee everyone at some point had devalued a life, whether it be through their actions or beliefs...does this mean we all desire to have clones of ourselves running around? I think not. Correlations rarely mean anything. Scientists have drawn correlations between smoking and poverty. Does this mean smoking causes poverty? Or does povery cause smoking?

Back to the Nazis. Did you know that Hitler actually had no plans for total European domination, but wanted to share the world with Britain and Italy? But that Britain turned him down? What IF England hadn't? Would the Nazis have committed their crimes? Would they have devauled life? There's even reason to believe, through documented evidence, I wouldn't speculate) that Hitler had no plans for extermination of the Jews prior to 1942. What is circumstances had changed? Would the Nazis have devalued life?

What if...what if....the Nazis had joined with England and Italy and held Europe. Would anyone have fought it? What if, then, they would have found DNA? Would the Nazis have used it for evil? What if the Enlish had found it first? Would THEY have used it for evil? What if they had decided had decided to make genetically modified rabbits that could survive extensive periods of time udnerground in order to deliver radioactive chemicals to water supply systems in Eastern Europe? Is THAT plausible???

There are too many questions that can't be answered about the past. We can't necessarily guess as to what they would have done because quite simply, we just don't know.
 
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Diamond, and all,

I'd like to remind everyone about the use of the term 'nazi' on this site...

http://forum.interference.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67879&highlight=nazi

AND

http://forum.interference.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46901&highlight=nazi


Comparing those that support embrionic stem cell research to Nazis is NOT ok here. For one, I support it, and I had family slaughtered by the Nazis. I do NOT appreciate this baseless association, Diamond. Thats like saying that people who like tattooing others are just like the Nazis as well... because they used to tattoo people, then skin them, and keep human tattooed flesh as 'art'.

I am not posting this in public to embarrass Diamond, nor pick on him, but to remind everyone about our policy about this.
 
Ok point taken Joel.
You may have supported in your state however the majority of Ameicans oppose it.
Perhaps the comparison made was a reach.

The reason Americans oppose the practice of e-cell research and cloning is that it's their tax dollars they feel are being ill spent for unethical medical reasons and morality reasons.

On the other hand the scientists and researchers are trying to sell it as 'compassionate research' and so far it's a no-sale in America.

I heard you had GW Bush stickers lying around your house, what's up w that?:sexywink:

db9
 
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diamond said:
Ok point taken Joel.
You may have supported in your state however the majority of Ameicans oppose it.
Perhaps the comparison made was a reach.

The reason Americans oppose the practice of e-cell research and cloning is that it's their tax dollars they feel are being ill spent for unethical medical reasons and morality reasons.

On the other hand the scientists and researchers are trying to sell it as 'compassionate research' and so far it's a no-sale in America.

I heard you had GW Bush stickers lying around your house, what's up w that?:sexywink:

db9
Click to expand...

I actually voted against the California proposition because it specifcially prohibited certain types of research. It was a Trojan Horse as most of these props. are, and I'm actually very dissapointed that it passed because of this.

I really am not one to go with the majority, or not... because the majority often base their decisions on ignorance, buzz clips, etc. No mob mentality for me, thank you.

And by the way... if people have a problem with the Govt spending their tax dollars in unethical and immoral reasons they've missed the boat. People seem to either turn a blind eye to most everything, or are happy being ignorant and not knowing what REALLY goes on.

As for the GW stickers you sent me, they promptly found a new home in the round file ;) Although I did keep the 'Diamond' newsletter for laughs. Thanks :D;)
 
a creepy aspect of this is that I see poor women selling their harvested eggs for profit for research. :|
 
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Elvis said:
Diamond, and all,

I'd like to remind everyone about the use of the term 'nazi' on this site...

http://forum.interference.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67879&highlight=nazi

AND

http://forum.interference.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46901&highlight=nazi


Comparing those that support embrionic stem cell research to Nazis is NOT ok here. For one, I support it, and I had family slaughtered by the Nazis. I do NOT appreciate this baseless association, Diamond. Thats like saying that people who like tattooing others are just like the Nazis as well... because they used to tattoo people, then skin them, and keep human tattooed flesh as 'art'.

I am not posting this in public to embarrass Diamond, nor pick on him, but to remind everyone about our policy about this.
Click to expand...

i fully agree with this here, and would like if the mods could put an end to the people around here comparing the bush administration to nazis, as well.
 
Actually, I don't see the problem with using the word Nazi here. No one's calling anyone a Nazi. If we're discussing the politics of Nazi party between the years 1933-1945, then there IS no problem. I for one, will continue to use the word Nazi here as I don't feel anyone has violated any rules.

Diamond, I'm angry because you insist you're right over an argument that can never be proven. It's blind faith in something that is illogical, without ever considering the alternatives.
 
IndyGoGirl said:
a creepy aspect of this is that I see poor women selling their harvested eggs for profit for research. :|
Click to expand...


is it any less creepy that men sell their sperm? Thats been going on for YEARS.
 
The_Sweetest_Thing said:
Actually, I don't see the problem with using the word Nazi here. No one's calling anyone a Nazi. If we're discussing the politics of Nazi party between the years 1933-1945, then there IS no problem. I for one, will continue to use the word Nazi here as I don't feel anyone has violated any rules.

Diamond, I'm angry because you insist you're right over an argument that can never be proven. It's blind faith in something that is illogical, without ever considering the alternatives.
Click to expand...
i didnt mean to make u angry:hug:
the things that are proven are:

e cells have cured nobody.
adult stem cell thearpies have bettered many ppl's lives.

and harvesting and killing embryos for an unproven science creeps a lot us us out.

joel was a clump of cells before
you were a clump of cells once before
arun was a clump of cells..

we all were.

going in and playing God scares alot of us.

thats all.

db9
 
The_Sweetest_Thing said:
Actually, I don't see the problem with using the word Nazi here. No one's calling anyone a Nazi. If we're discussing the politics of Nazi party between the years 1933-1945, then there IS no problem. I for one, will continue to use the word Nazi here as I don't feel anyone has violated any rules.
Click to expand...

Reading and understanding what I've said are important.

Diamond compared Nazis with those who want embrionic stem cell research.

The two threads I posted links to are rules/policies of this forum. Since some people may not have been around when they were more visible, I have posted the links to remind people of them. If you feel that you must use the word 'Nazi' please make sure that you understand our policies on the topic and make an effort to comply.

Calling someone a Nazi, comparing someone to Nazis, etc... unless they are/were a Nazi is not ok. Talking about Nazi politics, like you mentioned in a historical sense, is obviously ok. Posting neo-Nazi propaganda is not OK. Get it?
 
diamond said:
going in and playing God scares alot of us.
Click to expand...


But yet most of the country has absolutely no problem spending their tax dollars on weapons that can wipe out entire cities. Is that not also 'playing God'?

What about genetic engineering of food?

or

What about curing diseases... wouldnt that be 'playing god' as well since those people would die if it were not for medical technology?

Diamond, no one has said that embrionic stem cell research = creating an army of human clones.... and legislation could approve of embrionic stem cell research , yet prohibit cloning (like that has now passed in California).
 
no most of the proponents of e cell research are in favor of cloning embryos.

thats the playing god part and the master race connection.
maybe a leap i dunno.

its scary stuff.

im saying ppl who want to clone remind me of the master race folk that we had to knock out about 65 yrs ago;)
thats all.
it's preceptious.

and cloned animals havn't faired to well, how could cloned embrionic cells really help us?

where's Dolly the cloned sheep these days?

just asking everybody to think.

thats all.

peace,


db9
 
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