Star Wars Episode 3: An Anti-Bush Film? - Page 4 - U2 Feedback

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Old 05-17-2005, 07:21 PM   #46
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He makes a point in the Episode 1 commentary about having a hi-tech army being defeated by a low tech enemy, both the ewoks and the gungans being the examples, and then how technology is unreliable and can be overcome in the whole Clone Wars.

Star Wars may have elements of dictatorship and struggle, Lucas may comment how he sees these issues reflected in the US but he is not saying he wrote it as an allegory. The overall messages of good versus evil and that relationship goes beyond politics.

I myself see the Empire as totalitarianism, it is in many ways like Germany falling under the sway of Hitler. One could see that piece that is repeated time and time again where power is consolidated by evil leaders and the people suffer; I think that that is more stark when looking at communism, nazism or political Islam, others may see it in the US where Bush is President.

Oh and Nute Gunray (Newt Gingrich) and Lott Dod (Trent Lott) of the Trade Federation there are a few bits of influence there but it is hardly going to be outright this equals this and that means this and nothing else.
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Old 05-17-2005, 07:27 PM   #47
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Originally posted by STING2
All three Scripts were completed prior to the release of episode I in 1999 and Lucas had toyed with the idea of releasing the movies every year or two years.
You mean the scripts for the 3 prequels? If so, that's flat out wrong. Go grab the Attack of the Clones dvd and watch the special features. For that one at least, the script wasn't started until well after Ep 1 had been released and done it's run. I don't know when the Ep 3 script was written, but it appears that he does one at a time, in between each film. I'm sure he's known the rough story line for all of them since the mid 70's, but the details are all filled in later, and I'm sure a miriad of minor changes are made during actual filming, particularly with dialogue. For example, the "with us or against us" comparison. Bush was given a lot of stick for that exactly because it did sound like a line from a bad Bruce Willis film, not something a supposed international statesman should say. Whether Lucas wrote the similar line before or after Bush said it, it wasn't shot until 2003, well after Bush said it. It is so similar that there's no way Lucas or anyone else could read it and not think "that sounds a lot like that Bush line". Whether that, and other things, meant anything to him or not is where the debate is, and only he can answer that, and I would say that if he is smart he never will.

What can't be debated is this Vietnam question, because he did answer that. STING, you still saying that Vietnam was not an inspiration is really you arguing with George Lucas. The guy has flat out said that it was one of the rough inspirations for the overall theme of the whole series. He then says that he sees parallels between Vietnam and Iraq, in the political evolution sense that he's referencing in the films. Maybe he is playing up to his own political beliefs and doing a bit of revisionist history on himself, maybe not. But if he says it, you can't argue it. George Lucas is saying he did something, and you're saying he didn't.
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Old 05-17-2005, 07:33 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Star Wars may have elements of dictatorship and struggle, Lucas may comment how he sees these issues reflected in the US but he is not saying he wrote it as an allegory. The overall messages of good versus evil and that relationship goes beyond politics.


agreed, but i also think that the prequels are very much about how a democracy -- notice that even "Queen" amidala was elected to the Senate -- falls into a dictatorship. i view it as a cautionary tale, and i would also venture a guess that Lucas thinks we are on our way to becoming such a form of government.

not that we are, or that we are even close, but that there lies potential -- as it does within all countries.

Lucas has said that Vietnam influenced the first movies, and he is on record saying that the parallels between Iraq and Vietnam are striking.

what more do we need?

as you say, it's not a specific allegory, but as i said, these things are devices to tell a story. you also make a good point about the Ming the Merciless ... uh, i mean the Trade Federation people ... and their apparent comparisons to prominent Republicans. is it that much of a stretch that Annakin would say, in essence, "you are either with me or against me" and that this is a specific reference to Bush's late September 2001 speech (which was, imho, his finest moment) where he said that you are either with us or with the terrorists?

as for the scripts -- no, they were not complete in 1999 for all three films. outlines where there, the story might have been there, but the dialogue was not. and then there's the whole editing process, what makes it into the film and what does not which is often as important as the scripts themselves. ROTS was not edited before 1999.

as for U2 and Bono's lyrics, they have ALWAYS said that they keep things purposefully vague so that many might find a way into the song.
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Old 05-17-2005, 07:38 PM   #49
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer


Star Wars may have elements of dictatorship and struggle, Lucas may comment how he sees these issues reflected in the US but he is not saying he wrote it as an allegory. The overall messages of good versus evil and that relationship goes beyond politics.
I agree. I just think there are subtle references, that's all.
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Old 05-17-2005, 08:18 PM   #50
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I cant believe i just read a 4 page thread about Bush and Star Wars.

My head hurts!
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Old 05-17-2005, 10:22 PM   #51
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Originally posted by Earnie Shavers


You mean the scripts for the 3 prequels? If so, that's flat out wrong. Go grab the Attack of the Clones dvd and watch the special features. For that one at least, the script wasn't started until well after Ep 1 had been released and done it's run. I don't know when the Ep 3 script was written, but it appears that he does one at a time, in between each film. I'm sure he's known the rough story line for all of them since the mid 70's, but the details are all filled in later, and I'm sure a miriad of minor changes are made during actual filming, particularly with dialogue. For example, the "with us or against us" comparison. Bush was given a lot of stick for that exactly because it did sound like a line from a bad Bruce Willis film, not something a supposed international statesman should say. Whether Lucas wrote the similar line before or after Bush said it, it wasn't shot until 2003, well after Bush said it. It is so similar that there's no way Lucas or anyone else could read it and not think "that sounds a lot like that Bush line". Whether that, and other things, meant anything to him or not is where the debate is, and only he can answer that, and I would say that if he is smart he never will.

What can't be debated is this Vietnam question, because he did answer that. STING, you still saying that Vietnam was not an inspiration is really you arguing with George Lucas. The guy has flat out said that it was one of the rough inspirations for the overall theme of the whole series. He then says that he sees parallels between Vietnam and Iraq, in the political evolution sense that he's referencing in the films. Maybe he is playing up to his own political beliefs and doing a bit of revisionist history on himself, maybe not. But if he says it, you can't argue it. George Lucas is saying he did something, and you're saying he didn't.
When did George Lucas say from 1977 to 1984 that Vietnam is what inspired the Star Wars films? Please site a qoute and date. After one has finished a film and they say they see parallels between the films politics and current events is a hell of a lot different then saying the films were inspired by this particular war or event.

Once again, the stories were written over 30 years ago and the political backdropped used is ancient Rome and most of the themes come from culture and traditions that are thousands of years old. The film is about one man's fall from grace and eventual redemption. Its not about George Bush, the situation in Iraq, or any other thing liberals today would love to fantasize that Lucas is taking a swipe at. The movies were written over 30 years ago based on idea's from Lucas had when he was very young. This was well documented by Lucas himself over 20 years ago.
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Old 05-17-2005, 10:33 PM   #52
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Originally posted by Irvine511




agreed, but i also think that the prequels are very much about how a democracy -- notice that even "Queen" amidala was elected to the Senate -- falls into a dictatorship. i view it as a cautionary tale, and i would also venture a guess that Lucas thinks we are on our way to becoming such a form of government.

not that we are, or that we are even close, but that there lies potential -- as it does within all countries.

Lucas has said that Vietnam influenced the first movies, and he is on record saying that the parallels between Iraq and Vietnam are striking.

what more do we need?

as you say, it's not a specific allegory, but as i said, these things are devices to tell a story. you also make a good point about the Ming the Merciless ... uh, i mean the Trade Federation people ... and their apparent comparisons to prominent Republicans. is it that much of a stretch that Annakin would say, in essence, "you are either with me or against me" and that this is a specific reference to Bush's late September 2001 speech (which was, imho, his finest moment) where he said that you are either with us or with the terrorists?

as for the scripts -- no, they were not complete in 1999 for all three films. outlines where there, the story might have been there, but the dialogue was not. and then there's the whole editing process, what makes it into the film and what does not which is often as important as the scripts themselves. ROTS was not edited before 1999.

as for U2 and Bono's lyrics, they have ALWAYS said that they keep things purposefully vague so that many might find a way into the song.
Where did Lucas specifically say that the political back drop in Star Wars was influenced by Vietnam? Can you site one article from 1977 to 1984 in print or on video where Lucas says precisely that?

Making statements today after the films are finished that the movie seems to parallel this current event or something from recent history is not the same thing as saying the film was origionally inspired by that event.


As for U2 and Bono's lyrics, they would be the first to tell that there is nothing Vague about songs like "Pride" or "New Years Day" as well as many other songs. Also, not everyone including U2 themselves(from what I have read) would agree with your description of BOY and its contents.
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Old 05-17-2005, 10:45 PM   #53
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in my simplistic mind I always thought it was all about the Americans vs the Commies (at least eps 4-6, dont really remember the other 2)

at any rate, my friends and I on the last day of school(this fri!!!), we're getting costumes and going to the movies...and were not gonna see star wars! its gonna be awesome...
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Old 05-18-2005, 01:39 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
When did George Lucas say from 1977 to 1984 that Vietnam is what inspired the Star Wars films? Please site a qoute and date. After one has finished a film and they say they see parallels between the films politics and current events is a hell of a lot different then saying the films were inspired by this particular war or event.
Umm, did you read past my first sentence? He said it the other day, hence why I said;

Quote:
Maybe he is playing up to his own political beliefs and doing a bit of revisionist history on himself, maybe not.
I don't know what George Lucas said or did in 1977. I know what he said the other day.
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Old 05-18-2005, 01:49 AM   #55
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I care more about Greedo shooting first than what inspired some dialogue in ROTS.
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Old 05-18-2005, 04:07 AM   #56
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^Now that's something we can all agree on.
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Old 05-18-2005, 04:11 AM   #57
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Entertainment Weekly#820 May 20,2005 "By Lucas' own calculation, 60 percent of the prequel plot he dreamed up decades earlier takes place in Sith. The remaining 40 percent he split evenly between Menace and Clones, meaning each film contained a lot of... filler.




CANNES - Since Revenge of the Sith debuted at Cannes on Sunday, Star Wars creator George Lucas has been answering questions about the movie's political subtext.

The question on the minds of many people who have seen the new film: does it contain rhetorical jabs aimed at U.S. President George W. Bush?


Revenge tells the story of how Anakin Skywalker – the Jedi Knight played by Canada's Hayden Christensen – becomes corrupted by the dark side of the Force, turning into the evil cyborg Darth Vader in the process.

Just before the film's climactic lightsaber battle between Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi, Skywalker tells his former mentor, "If you're not with me, then you're my enemy."

The line has been prompting laughs from preview audiences, who believe it to be a deliberate paraphrase of Bush's warning to the global community after the Sept. 11 attacks: "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."

The backdrop to Anakin's fall is the parallel story of how a benevolent galactic government, the Republic, sinks into a dictatorship through the machinations of the evil Palpatine – who stages a phony war as part of his ascent.

"This is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause," says senator Padmé Amidala (Natalie Portman) when the galactic legislature grants Palpatine's request for extraordinary wartime powers aimed at reorganizing the Republic into an empire.

At a press conference, Lucas said the film does mirror history, but he did not set out to comment on U.S. foreign policy under Bush.

"As you go through history, I didn't think it was going to get quite this close. So it's just one of those recurring things," he said.

"I hope this doesn't come true in our country. Maybe the film will waken people to the situation," Lucas added jokingly.

Lucas also said he penned the film long before the U.S. went to war against Iraq.

"When I wrote it, Iraq didn't exist," the filmmaker said with a laugh.

"We were just funding Saddam Hussein and giving him weapons of mass destruction. We didn't think of him as an enemy at that time." He added that the "parallels between what we did in Vietnam and what we're doing in Iraq now are unbelievable."


As research for writing the prequel trilogy, Lucas studied how democracies become dictatorships with the consent of the electorate.

"You sort of see these recurring themes where a democracy turns itself into a dictatorship, and it always seems to happen kind of in the same way, with the same kinds of issues, and threats from the outside, needing more control. A democratic body, a senate, not being able to function properly because everybody's squabbling, there's corruption."

Although his films are not overtly political, Lucas has included some allusions to U.S. politics in previous episodes of Star Wars. In The Phantom Menace he named characters after politicians: Nute Gunray, for instance, was named for Newt Gingrich, the former Republican speaker of the House.

Lucas himself has steered clear of speaking out on politics by endorsing specific candidates, choosing instead to champion broad causes such as education.

Since Bush first came to power, he has inspired a growing list of films, including Fahrenheit 9/11, Team America: World Police and Silver City, as well as television programs like That's My Bush!.

Revenge of the Sith opens to the general public on Thursday.




Premiere magazine quote:"You have to remember, this whole thing was written thirty years ago, says Lucas of the original Star Wars story, which he wanted to reflect "how Ceasar came to power" in a sci-fi setting. At the time, Nixon and the Vietnam war were deeply affecting the director, who had most recently completed American Graffiti. "A very powerful and technological superpower trying to take over a country of peasants was big on my mind," he says. "The fact that history repeats itself is a little shocking." May 2005

I hope this helps your discussion guys
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Old 05-18-2005, 04:18 AM   #58
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Old 05-18-2005, 04:55 AM   #59
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You left out M&Ms, Burger King and Pepsi.
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Old 05-18-2005, 06:29 AM   #60
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Oh I didnt't make it
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