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Old 12-13-2005, 05:10 AM   #121
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I think that talking about the crips taking out the man could be interperated as such sentiment.
1. look up what crib (sic) means, it has various meanings
2. to take care of someone does not mean to kill someone
3. what you think is of such utter unimportance that I am tempted to forgive you
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Old 12-13-2005, 05:23 AM   #122
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I didn't say anything worth forgiving to begin with (I agree with you about his excecution being the wrong way to go about things, as I do about execution of tyrants), this has nothing to do with me, it is an observation and one very amusing statement of technicalities on what is one of the most minor infractions of such a policy that I have ever seen called.
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Old 12-13-2005, 05:26 AM   #123
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It has been shown that friends and family members of a murdered loved one find themselves more depressed after the killer is killed; they think that with vengence comes acceptance and the ability to move on, often times they are left with nothing
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Old 12-13-2005, 05:39 AM   #124
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
and very amusing
indeeeeed
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Old 12-13-2005, 06:13 AM   #125
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I for one am glad he is dead...who cares what good deeds he had done since his conviction- the point is he took four lives and should have been executed a long time ago.

All he did was get "3 hots & a cot" at tax payers expense for 20 years.

The fucking media & people like Jesse Jackson are making a complete farce out of this- who gives a shit..move on
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Old 12-13-2005, 06:14 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally posted by blueyedpoet
It has been shown that friends and family members of a murdered loved one find themselves more depressed after the killer is killed; they think that with vengence comes acceptance and the ability to move on, often times they are left with nothing

Point taken. But I can understand the desire for personal vengeance more than I can understand the cold lethalness of capital punishment. And I doubt that I would feel good about it or myself if I ever carried it personal vengeance. In fact, I would carry it with me until the day I died and would expect to reap all the legal and moral consequences of it. But I would be less than honest if I didn't say I was capable of it. I don't consider it a virtue. I'm not sure that I consider it a flaw. It just is.

For most of my life, I have followed a moral code diligently, but in the abstract. It's only in the past several years, I've looked seriously at my own inconsistencies to sort them out, to make my peace with them. And that necessitates a total honesty to myself (if not always with others ) as to what is now--not necessarily what will be forever.

I don't struggle with the reality of the death penalty as much as I struggle with my own acceptance or rejection of it. So the best I can tell you right now is I understand the desire for it and am disturbed by it at the same time. What will probably lead me to ultimately oppose the death penalty are the times we get it wrong. The number of innocent people we've found on death row leads me to the horrific belief that somewhere along the line, we may have killed the innocent and probably have. This doesn't answer the ultimate moral question of the death penalty.

Contrary to my user name, which came out of a private joke, I'm no saint. I'm capable of kindness. I'm equally as capable of hate. I'm not inherently nice. I am aware of my own violence.

And I've gotten way more personal here than I ever
intended.
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:09 AM   #127
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I for one am glad he is dead
That is one of the most revolting things I have ever read on this forum.

Taking gladness in the death of another is low.
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:24 AM   #128
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


Load of BS. Im not a bloody Liberal and have told you for years.

SHAME on Arnold, I repeat, he is a traitor of our values here.
brotherhiphop-

you are very much a socailist w liberal tendencies, i read your posts all day long and see all the symptoms...

and arnold is a very good leader, you folks sholuld of never gave him an excuse to leave.

db9
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:28 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
It's not about feeling for the murderer for me.

It's about recognizing that the living must go on with life. It is an incredibly difficult thing to get up in the morning and not want vengeance and not want revenge. And it takes many years to get to that point. But you have to regain some of your own humanity at some point or you have nothing left. So to not want vengeance is more about your own peace of mind, and coming to terms that the people who are no longer here with you will never be here with you again, and whether or not the person responsible for it is killed in their name will not change that. It won't make your life easier. It won't make you sleep better at night or miss them any less, or feel a sense of satisfaction. Forgiveness is an amazing thing, moreso for your own good than for their
That is beautiful, the way you said that. I haven't read through the entire thread (it seems to have gone the way I thought, it is an emotional topic but it would be nice to have a discussion about it that doesn't get nasty), but I will be honest and say that my complete sympathy for crime victims and their families has led me on occasion to have a gut , emotional reaction to the death penalty, expecially in the rape and murder of a woman, wife, pregnant wife or the heinous murder of any child. I have no sympathy whatsoever for the criminals, other than the fact that it is a tragic waste- that they could have made different choices in life. Case in point Tookie Williams. I think it is wonderful if he did find some redemption in prison, and Jesus was all about redemption. And there can always be lingering doubts about executing innocent people. I don't know if he was innocent, he claimed he was.

But I cannot support the death penalty, it is against my beliefs and it ultimately leaves me with a hollow, empty, somewhat sick feeling(and for me that doesn't negate in any way the same feeling I have about the criminals). Even some of the victims' families feel that way, they mentioned Bud Welch last night on CNN. His daughter Julie was killed in the Murrah Federal Building (Oklahoma City) and at first he wanted death for McVeigh-now he goes around speaking against the death penalty. Obviously he is just one example and not every family member feels that way. but it is just something to read about/think about. I have never been in their shoes, so I would never give myself the right to judge any of them regarding how they feel. That is for them to come to terms with.

a little bit about Bud Welch

http://www.journeyofhope.org/old_sit.../bud_welch.htm

“I was opposed to the death penalty all my life until my daughter Julie Marie was killed in the Oklahoma City bombing. For many months after the bombing I could have killed Timothy McVeigh myself. Temporary insanity is real, and I have lived it. You can’t think of enough adjectives to describe the rage, revenge, and hate I felt. But after time, I was able to examine my conscience, and I realized that if McVeigh is put to death, it won’t help me in the healing process. People talk about executions bringing closure. But how can there be closure when my little girl is never coming back. I finally realized that the death penalty is all about revenge and hate, and revenge and hate are why Julie Marie and 167 others are dead.”



In April 1995, Bud Welch’s 23 year old daughter was killed in the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. In the months after her death, he changed from supporting the death penalty for Timothy McVeigh to taking a public stand against it. His change of heart was inspired in part by Julie Marie herself. Once, while listening to a radio report on an execution in Texas, she had turned to him and said, “Dad, that makes me sick. All those Texans are doing is teaching all the children down there to hate. The murderer did wrong, but now the government has stooped to his level.”

Bud eventually arranged to meet with Timothy McVeigh’s father, Bill. “I saw a deep pain in a father’s eye, but also an incredible love for his son.” Bud says, “I was able to tell him that I truly understood the pain that he was going through, and that he – as I – was a victim of what happened in Oklahoma City.”
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:44 AM   #130
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I am trying to find some proper photos of the people he was convicted of killing, it is very telling that there are so many photos of Tookie yet I can't find any of them..

That is one thing that infuriates me, is the making of some criminals into "celebrities" to the point that the victims are forgotten. In general the victims tend to be forgotten in the criminal justice system and in the media- luckily we have victims advocates in the court system and some people in the media to work on that.
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:47 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


brotherhiphop-

you are very much a socailist w liberal tendencies, i read your posts all day long and see all the symptoms...

db9
brotherdiamond -

I am proud to be a person with social values.

I always supported Arnold because he´s a fellow Austrian. Now I am just ashamed of him. I see no values there and no respect for life.
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:54 AM   #132
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I don't know why but I cried this morning for this man. What he did was terribible but are we any better for ending his life.
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:00 AM   #133
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Well I wouldn't begin to mock people getting all sentimental, I will just say that the death of this man does not stop other people from being killed and I cannot see any particular benefits resulting from his death.
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:09 AM   #134
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I'm very much opposed of paying for a convicted killer's 3 meals a day and college education - not to mention they get to enjoy the nice sunny days playing basketball with their inmate pals

Where is the justice?
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:12 AM   #135
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I'm very much opposed of paying for a convicted killer's 3 meals a day and college education - not to mention they get to enjoy the nice sunny days playing basketball with their inmate pals
If prison is so sunny compared to your life, then I suggest finding a way to go to prison yourself.

Melon
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