Stanley Tookie Williams

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Justin24 said:
Wow, read the last part of the article. Tookie seems so nice, we should have done more to save him. :|

http://today.reuters.com/news/NewsA...01_KNE985077_RTRUKOT_0_TEXT0.xml&related=true


Look a model Prisoner: http://crime.about.com/od/deathrow/a/tookie15.htm

Here is the story on the murder of the 7-11 clerk: http://crime.about.com/od/deathrow/a/tookie2.htm
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You can post all the articles you want about who did what and how evil and terrible their crimes are, people who are against the death penalty acknowledge that they are bad people.

By killing these people, we are killing part of ourselves as a civilized reasoning society. Those individuals who commit these acts aren't part of our society anymore and should be incarcerated for their crimes. To defeat the monster we should not become the monster.

You can agree with the death penalty based on the belief that murderers are evil people and should be executed, fine, but the issue is much more complex than that argument. But it's your choice, and you are free to believe what you wish.

Don't take this the wrong way, but when I was 24 , I felt exactly the way you did. I was gung-ho for executions, kill em all, bastards! But a few years back, I came to a revelation that the system is imperfect, innocent people are being convicted and killed by the government because of bias in the legal system. It is a barbaric , archaic practice which most democracies on the planet agreed to abolish except for a few while countries which are flagrant human rights abusers continue to allow it. Do some research, take away the emotional response to the topic and maybe you will understand where some of us are coming from. You may still support the death penalty but again, it is your right to do so.
 
Well Pumping to holes in the guys body like what Williams did is not civilized. I had to research the Death Penalty for class, as one of our subjects. I still believe in the death penalty. They should also make 100% sure he is the person before giving that sentence.
 
Justin24 said:
They should also make 100% sure he is the person before giving that sentence.
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but this is the problem. the death penalty is 100% final. convictions are not. there have been dozens (if not hundreds) of cases where, thanks to DNA evidence and technology, convictions have been overturned and innocent men have been set free. it's the inability of a human system of justice to fairly and correctly utilize the death penalty that makes me anti-death penalty. i'm agnostic as to whether it is right or wrong to murder murderers. i simply think the death penalty is a bad punishment.
 
I am saying before there is a trial or during the trial, make sure all the evidence is 100 % correct.
 
Justin24 said:
Mabey. We have never done it, I think.
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but if we're hearing about how many people who have been either set free or had their sentences drastically reduced due to DNA evidence, isn't it logical to assume that dozens, if not hundreds, of innocent people have been put to death in this country?

and what arguments are there for the death penalty other than the cost of incarcertaing someone for life and giving the family not a sense of closure but a feeling of vengence?

what is the argument for the death penalty?
 
So I am supposed to show compasion for a person the killed another human being and give him a big hug and say "you know that was a bad thing you did." I think I will be like Jesus and forgive you. One thing I want to ask you BonoVox. If we had Captured Hitler alive, would you say no to his execution or is this a special cirumstance?
 
Justin24 said:
So I am supposed to show compasion for a person the killed another human being and give him a big hug and say "you know that was a bad thing you did." I think I will be like Jesus and forgive you. One thing I want to ask you BonoVox. If we had Captured Hitler alive, would you say no to his execution or is this a special cirumstance?
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Once again you're taking leaps of logic. No one said anything about a hug and forgiveness, a life sentence isn't exactly a hug.:huh:

I'd let him rot, why can't you understand this?
 
Ok Justin, let's ask you a question.

Let's say you are a poor person of a visible minority in 1975. Let's say someone close to you gets murdered in the home you live in like a girlfriend,( I do not wish this upon you, this is just hypothetical). Let's say they charge you with the murder, some witnesses say they saw you arguing with the deceased, your physical evidence is all over the place and on the body of the deceased like hair samples and your blood under her fingernails, the cop is a racist who treats you like shit and you aren't too smart due to a learning disability which teachers failed to recognize so you aren't to sure about your rights, you don't have a lawyer except for a public defender who doesn't fight too hard for you as they are probably overwhelmed with tons of other cases, an all white jury convicts you of the murder based on the evidence despite the fact you didn't do it because while you went for a walk to clear your head after the fight, someone broke into your home and killed the deceased cause she caught them trying to steal your tv, they panicked and left with nothing. They sentence you to death. You die after 15 years of appeals. Then in 1995, DNA evidence proves you didn't do it, it was another guy they already have convicted for 2 other murders. How do you feel about it now? You're dead though. Ruben Carter had people who believed in him as did many others, this may not be the case with Tookie but it is in many other cases.

The police in many cities and the DA are desperate to pin a murder on people. Society feels safer when someone goes to jail for murder. Hence, all the bull that happens during the whole prosecution process. Unfortunately, there are hundreds of murderers walking around free in our society who will never be caught.

And as Bonovox said, we don't want the murderers to go free, clemency or commutation is not freedom. They spend the rest of their lives incarcerated, locked away from society with no freedom.
 
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What I cant understand if how you would keep him in jail for the rest of his life, knowing her murdered 4 people in cold blood, and had no remorse and did not apologize to the families. Even if he had been given a life sentence he could still cause harm on the inside. He can still call Hits from inside to his gang on the outside.
How could you possible keep Hitler alive in jail for all the horror he had done. If he was going to be executed, would you go out and have a vigil with him?
 
Well If I am in jail and it takes 15 years for them to finally put me out. I have 15 years to get as many people to hear me. Would I be like Tookie and right books like him, mabey. I would ask my spiritual adviser to help clear me. Get an outside investigation team.
I am aware that some innocent people might have been executed. If I were executed, the only person who would know I am innocent is God.
 
Justin24 said:
What I cant understand if how you would keep him in jail for the rest of his life, knowing her murdered 4 people in cold blood, and had no remorse and did not apologize to the families. Even if he had been given a life sentence he could still cause harm on the inside. He can still call Hits from inside to his gang on the outside.
How could you possible keep Hitler alive in jail for all the horror he had done. If he was going to be executed, would you go out and have a vigil with him?
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Well I've told you before. I don't believe in humankind playing God.

WE DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO CARRY OUT SUCH ABSOLUTES!!!
 
We dont have the ability! Corporations that control the masses with TV, who like to side things in their view. Propoganda, etc... Cloning is that not trying to be like God.
 
Justin24 said:
Well If I am in jail and it takes 15 years for them to finally put me out. I have 15 years to get as many people to hear me. Would I be like Tookie and right books like him, mabey. I would ask my spiritual adviser to help clear me. Get an outside investigation team.
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What does this have to do with it?

Justin24 said:

I am aware that some innocent people might have been executed.
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And you're fine with that? That's almost as troubling as the vengeful tone in some of your posts.
Justin24 said:

If I were executed, the only person who would know I am innocent is God.
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And probably the one that actually commited the crime. The girlfriend you were with at the time of the murder but was discredited on the stand. Possibly even others...
 
Justin24 said:
Well If I am in jail and it takes 15 years for them to finally put me out. I have 15 years to get as many people to hear me. Would I be like Tookie and right books like him, mabey. I would ask my spiritual adviser to help clear me. Get an outside investigation team.
I am aware that some innocent people might have been executed. If I were executed, the only person who would know I am innocent is God.
Click to expand...

You're a nobody, no one cares, almost everyone but your mom thinks you're guilty. No gives a shit and they think you are a cold-hearted monster who destroyed the life of a young flower. You're only spiritual advisor is a clergy guy who might come around once a month to visit you in solitary.---This pertains to the situation.

If you agree that innocents have been executed, then the government, we the people and all that , have committed murder which is the flaw in the system.
 
Justin24 said:
We dont have the ability! Corporations that control the masses with TV, who like to side things in their view. Propoganda, etc... Cloning is that not trying to be like God.
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:huh:

You're losing me.
 
Like I said in an earlier post. That the facts must be 100% I never said executing an innocent person was right. Dont put words in my mouth.
 
Originally posted by trevster2k If you agree that innocents have been executed, then the government, we the people and all that , have committed murder which is the flaw in the system.
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So killing guity people is not murder?
 
trevster2k said:


Thanks for not answering the question and responding with another question, you should be in politics.:wink:

I know that there have been innocent people convicted of murder and am convinced that there are innocent people still sitting on death rows around America and innocent men have been executed. That fact alone makes capitall punishment the wrong policy because innocent people are having their lives ruined due to poor lawyering, crooked cops, bad judges/juries, coerced confessions, false testimony, etc regardless of the moral issue.

To answer your question, yes, there are hundreds if not thousands of people wrongly convicted of crimes for a variety of reasons. The solution would be correcting inequalites and ensuring fairness in the legal system but you can't legislate fairness, no cops with a beef, removal of the inability to afford competent representation, no pre-conceived notions of juries, etc. But at least a person convicted for theft or assault doesn't get the ultimate punishment as a result of the mistake.

David Milgaard, Ruben "Hurricane" Carter, Donald Marshall, Guy Paul Morin, Ronald Dalton, Greg Parsons, Randy Druken, these are just a few men who have been released from wrongful convictions for murder. There are many more. Thanks to these expensive appeals everyone here harps on, they were cleared and have had to rebuild their lives. Yes, the guilty should be punished but not at the expense of the innocent. Until the legal system can guarantee an infallible system of proving guilt, capital punishment is wrong.
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I am well familiar with the potential for mistake argument (I've been through all of these in law school). It really has nothing to do with perfecting the legal system (which is impossible), but argues to suspend capital punishment until this unachievable goal is achieved.

We are also in an era where DNA evidence can cast new doubts on a conviction (not disprove a conviction or identify the truly guilty party), and a general lack of understanding of the science involved causes us to act with greater caution.

But to the extent we are allowing a government to "play god" and deny someone their liberty, I believe it is fully reasonable to keep capital punishment as the punishment of last resort. Yes, the government should be able to carry out such "absolutes". After all, Tookie and other death row inmates have carried out absolutes on their own.
 
Justin24 said:
Like I said in an earlier post. That the facts must be 100% I never said executing an innocent person was right. Dont put words in my mouth.
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And I've said that's impossible. We are human. There is no 100% system.

You said
I am aware that some innocent people might have been executed.
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So you admit the system is flawed. Yet you are willing to send more innocent lives to death to seek revenge on the others. This system is final and your willingness to do this is truly disturbing to me.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:
So you admit the system is flawed. Yet you are willing to send more innocent lives to death to seek revenge on the others. This system is final and your willingness to do this is truly disturbing to me.
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Why would we allow any form of punishment if there is a possibility of an error? Isn't that just as disturbing?
 
I understand what you are saying Justin. You don't agree with innocent's being executed but Tookie killed 4 people and was the founder of the Crips so he deserved the death penalty.

But how do we know for certain that he was guilty for the crimes he was convicted of? We don't. The courts in 1981 found him guilty based on testimony from accomplices who benefited from their testimony. But if that's good enough for you, so be it.

Thanks for the chat, Justin.
 
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