Stanley Tookie Williams

[VintagePunk]

does it matter to you either way what I think?

Wow. Nice response.

I thought this was a discussion forum. I was just asking what you thought of the two options. Sorry.

 

[Justin24]

I can't believe people out there support that a criminal who commited 4 murderes should still have a right to live. Hitler murdered 6 Million Jews and millions of prisoners, Gypsies, and homosexuals, Stalin murdered more people than Hitler, and Clinton killed thousands and did Bush. So if they were arresested do you think they desereve the death penalty.

Melon you said we played god on who should live and who should die. Well isn't that the same thing as abortion. The child has no say if he/she wants to live.

 

[BVS]

I can't believe people out there support that a criminal who commited 4 murderes should still have a right to live. Hitler murdered 6 Million Jews and millions of prisoners, Gypsies, and homosexuals, Stalin murdered more people than Hitler, and Clinton killed thousands and did Bush. So if they were arresested do you think they desereve the death penalty.

Wow you are really convoluting the discussion now.

I can't believe that people can't leave life and death up to God. I can't believe people really think this makes the world any safer. I can't believe that people don't realize there is human error and that alone makes capital punishment wrong. We are human and should be humble enough to realize we aren't capable of making absolutes like this.

This is what I can't believe.

Melon you said we played god on who should live and who should die. Well isn't that the same thing as abortion. The child has no say if he/she wants to live.

Melon may have said it as well(not sure), but so did I. But bringing in abortion opens whole new doors and should be kept in entirely different thread, or you'll see this thread spin out of control.

 

[nbcrusader]

Question - are you more opposed to the cost of feeding and housing a prisoner for life than you are to placing them on death row, and incurring the even greater costs of seeing them through the appellate process before they are finally executed?

That is a problem with our justice system. The appellate process takes far too long and covers years of inaction. More often than not, the various appeals filed have no basis in fact.

 

[BVS]

That is a problem with our justice system. The appellate process takes far too long and covers years of inaction. More often than not, the various appeals filed have no basis in fact.

Do you think we would have as many appeals bogging up the system if only life sentences were used?

 

[VintagePunk]

That is a problem with our justice system. The appellate process takes far too long and covers years of inaction. More often than not, the various appeals filed have no basis in fact.

But nonetheless, it exists in its current form, and in doing so negates any financial argument in favour of the death penalty.

 

[nbcrusader]

Do you think we would have as many appeals bogging up the system if only life sentences were used?

Perhaps not, but I'd hate to think dishonest lawyers would have that great an impact on society.

But, I'm kidding myself. Dishonest lawyers place a large financial drain on society.

 

[BVS]

Perhaps not, but I'd hate to think dishonest lawyers would have that great an impact on society.

But, I'm kidding myself. Dishonest lawyers place a large financial drain on society.

So wait, all appeals in capital punishment cases are dishonest?

 

[financeguy]

I don't have much sympathy for this guy Tookie considering what he did and the gang he spawned

 

[nbcrusader]

So wait, all appeals in capital punishment cases are dishonest?

I didn't say that. But take a look at the appeals filed over the last few days in Tookie's case. Interesting how "new evidence" is found in the last 72 hours.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I don't have much sympathy for this guy Tookie considering what he did and the gang he spawned

I understand that completely, but I also don't believe that people who didn't think he should get the death penalty necessarily had sympathy for him either. Maybe some did, I don't know. I think the two can be mutually exclusive.

 

[BVS]

I didn't say that. But take a look at the appeals filed over the last few days in Tookie's case. Interesting how "new evidence" is found in the last 72 hours.

Well yes. But one can also say there's something to be said for desperation. There are those that believe so strongly that the act of capital punishment is wrong that they will make it their lives work. But the same can be said for many issues, and the same can be said for lawyers all around.

 

[BVS]

I understand that completely, but I also don't believe that people who didn't think he should get the death penalty necessarily had sympathy for him either. Maybe some did, I don't know. I think the two can be mutually exclusive.

Absolutely.

 

[nbcrusader]

Europeans outraged at Schwarzenegger

In Schwarzenegger's hometown of Graz, local Greens said they would file a petition to remove his name from the southern city's sports stadium. A Christian political group went even further, suggesting it be renamed the "Stanley Tookie Williams Stadium."

What ever achievements Schwarzenegger led to the naming of the sports stadium are now gone because he did not block a death penalty handed down 20 years ago?

Isn't this just another form of vengence?

 

[financeguy]

Europeans outraged at Schwarzenegger

That article seems to quote only left wing opinion in Europe, surely they should also have asked conservative political parties for their view.

 

[Justin24]

Yup that article is only showing one side. They sure are showing vengance aren't they.

 

[nbcrusader]

That article seems to quote only left wing opinion in Europe, surely they should also have asked conservative political parties for their view.

I just quoted the article title.

 

[VintagePunk]

Isn't this just another form of vengence?

Probably, but it's infinitely less harmful than the vengence that occurred last night, and it lacks the permanence, too. It can be undone, should they ever find cause to do so.

 

[financeguy]

I just quoted the article title.

I appreciate that but there seems to be a preponderance of left leaning opinion quoted (e.g. the Greens). What I am trying to say is I suspect a lot of Europeans would sympathise with the action of Mr Schwarzenegger in approving the execution of the crime boss and multiple murderer Tookie.

 

[trevster2k]

I was wondering for all the people who support the death penalty? Do you think that innocent people have been executed or sit on death row awaiting execution?

 

[nbcrusader]

I was wondering for all the people who support the death penalty? Do you think that innocent people have been executed or sit on death row awaiting execution?

That is really not a question about the death penalty, but a question about the soundness of our legal system.

Are there people in prison who are innocent? If so, how do you refine the system to reduce the number of innocents jailed without freeing the guilty?

 

[BVS]

That is really not a question about the death penalty, but a question about the soundness of our legal system.

Has everything to do with the death penalty. We are human and will have human error, therefore we will never have the ability to make these types of absolutes.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

Good riddance Tookie. It's a shame you messed your life up so bad, but the punishment fits the crime and I won't be shedding any tears for you.

Oh, and the comments about Arnold having blood on his hands over this is beyond ridiculous. You see this is a society of laws. Tookie here broke some of the most important laws of the land. Here the people have decided that the death penalty is a legitimate punishment for certain crimes. Took had his trial, was found guilty, and the people decided what his punishment should be. It's not Arnold's job to come in and alter it at the last minute.

Oh and saying that Tookie should be granted clemency because he was nominated for a nobel peace prize is also a joke. There is basically no criteria whatsoever for nobel peace prize nominations. Hell, Yasser Arafat actually won the damn thing and there aren't a whole lot of people who were more deserving of the death penalty than him in the last 30 years.

I agree on this.

If it's the law, it's the law. And if that was the punishment for the crimes he commited than that's what he deserves.

If he is willing to commit the crime he should be willing to accept the consquences.

I don't see what the whole debate is.

 

[BVS]

I agree on this.

If it's the law, it's the law. And if that was the punishment for the crimes he commited than that's what he deserves.

So we're not allowed to question our government? We're not allowed to question the means of punishment?

That's ridiculous. Might as well go back to public hangings if that's your mentality.

 

[nbcrusader]

So we're not allowed to question our government? We're not allowed to question the means of punishment?

That's ridiculous. Might as well go back to public hangings if that's your mentality.

I guess we've clearly define the polarity of this issue. Perhaps an interesting question would be "on what basis should a death row inmate receive clemency?"

 

[BVS]

I guess we've clearly define the polarity of this issue. Perhaps an interesting question would be "on what basis should a death row inmate receive clemency?"

Not sure what that has to do with what I posted.

I'm just trying to point out the weakness of any argument that says "this is status quo so this is how it is.

 

[trevster2k]

That is really not a question about the death penalty, but a question about the soundness of our legal system.

Are there people in prison who are innocent? If so, how do you refine the system to reduce the number of innocents jailed without freeing the guilty?

Thanks for not answering the question and responding with another question, you should be in politics.

I know that there have been innocent people convicted of murder and am convinced that there are innocent people still sitting on death rows around America and innocent men have been executed. That fact alone makes capitall punishment the wrong policy because innocent people are having their lives ruined due to poor lawyering, crooked cops, bad judges/juries, coerced confessions, false testimony, etc regardless of the moral issue.

To answer your question, yes, there are hundreds if not thousands of people wrongly convicted of crimes for a variety of reasons. The solution would be correcting inequalites and ensuring fairness in the legal system but you can't legislate fairness, no cops with a beef, removal of the inability to afford competent representation, no pre-conceived notions of juries, etc. But at least a person convicted for theft or assault doesn't get the ultimate punishment as a result of the mistake.

David Milgaard, Ruben "Hurricane" Carter, Donald Marshall, Guy Paul Morin, Ronald Dalton, Greg Parsons, Randy Druken, these are just a few men who have been released from wrongful convictions for murder. There are many more. Thanks to these expensive appeals everyone here harps on, they were cleared and have had to rebuild their lives. Yes, the guilty should be punished but not at the expense of the innocent. Until the legal system can guarantee an infallible system of proving guilt, capital punishment is wrong.

 

[Irvine511]

To answer your question, yes, there are hundreds if not thousands of people wrongly convicted of crimes for a variety of reasons. The solution would be correcting inequalites and ensuring fairness in the legal system but you can't legislate fairness, no cops with a beef, removal of the inability to afford competent representation, no pre-conceived notions of juries, etc. But at least a person convicted for theft or assault doesn't get the ultimate punishment as a result of the mistake.

and let's not forget the inherent racism of the death penalty.

blacks are far, far more likely to be sentenced to death for the same crimes than whites.

 

[VintagePunk]

and let's not forget the inherent racism of the death penalty.

blacks are far, far more likely to be sentenced to death for the same crimes than whites.

And vast numbers of death row inmates are either racial minorities, impoverished, or both, and can't afford good legal representation to defend themselves.

 

[trevster2k]

and let's not forget the inherent racism of the death penalty.

blacks are far, far more likely to be sentenced to death for the same crimes than whites.

I'm not to sure about the race issue, but I'm certain money is a huge factor.

This is a link about death penaltys carried out and racial mixup of the convicted.

http://www.naacpldf.org/content/pdf/pubs/drusa/DRUSA_Summer_2005.pdf