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Old 12-14-2005, 08:40 PM   #406
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Dread and I have both posted quotes from Scripture in this thread. You are free to scroll back and take a look.
I haven´t found any. Please quote again the part where the Bible says its teachings/ usage of its morals are limited to personal behavior.

I want you to quote me a sentence that says "All what´s written in the Bible is only intended for your personal use - the rules do not apply to politicians or any matters outside your family" now.

If you can´t because there is no such sentence, just admit you were wrong.
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:42 PM   #407
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Where does it say the Bible is written as a guide to good government?
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:47 PM   #408
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
Where does it say the Bible is written as a guide to good government?
Exactly, if people want to see the Bible as a guide to their life so be it but in my view it shouldn't be the key basis of a legal system. It may be an influence, granted, but not the sole source of authority.
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Old 12-14-2005, 09:00 PM   #409
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I think that people who believe in secularism are overlooking a basic truth, progressive Christianity is good theocracy ergo it overrides any Godless and incompassionate arguments.
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Old 12-14-2005, 09:08 PM   #410
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
Where does it say the Bible is written as a guide to good government?
It is because the Bible is written for every man. Also the ten commandments were written for every man. political leaders are men, too. I´m not meaning politicians should follow the Bible (i am just as much for the segregation of state and church like everyone else).

Howver, to imply that the Bible was written for everyone BUT politicans, is a little far fetched.

In my eyes, that´s just an easy cop out. See, I´ll give you an example that you can´t take personal. I don´t think our Chancellor is living a good Christian life. He has a family, and maybe he is a great father and husband, I don´t know nothing about this. But at the same time he buys weapons, sanctions the killing of immigrants, makes coalitions with racists and makes the poor poorer. If our Chancellor was a good Christian, he would make the poor Austrians richer - he has the power to act.

Same for a businessman. If a businessman leads a perfect Christian personal life, but his way of acts business-wise destroys or harms other living beings, be it men, animals or nature, then he´s simply not a good Christian.

Everything else is just not enough. The apostels even had to give away everything they owned to be Jesus´ disciples. I´m not saying we can all lead an Apostolian life; but it is our duty to introduce the highest moral standards possible in order to fulfil God´s will.
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Old 12-14-2005, 09:10 PM   #411
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
Howver, to imply that the Bible was written for everyone BUT politicans, is a little far fetched.
And inherently dangerous.
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Old 12-14-2005, 09:10 PM   #412
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


I haven´t found any. Please quote again the part where the Bible says its teachings/ usage of its morals are limited to personal behavior.

I want you to quote me a sentence that says "All what´s written in the Bible is only intended for your personal use - the rules do not apply to politicians or any matters outside your family" now.

If you can´t because there is no such sentence, just admit you were wrong.
Why then the admonition to submit to governing authorities if there was not a difference in standards? If government followed the Bible as a guide, then we would automatically be happy with government and follow it joyfully without need for warning.

Alternatively, this suggests that we should live under a strict biblical theocracy - I doubt anyone here would call for that considering some of the writings governing other aspects of life.

Further, was there any direct call to change the Roman way of government? By Jesus? By the Disciples?

A perfect government won't happen until Christ's return.
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Old 12-14-2005, 09:13 PM   #413
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I think that people who believe in secularism are overlooking a basic truth, progressive Christianity is good theocracy ergo it overrides any Godless and incompassionate arguments.
Sorry but I am confused by this. Are you not a secularist yourself?
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Old 12-14-2005, 09:14 PM   #414
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Historically, "morality" was merely the confines of the petit-bourgeois. That is, in the Middle Ages, the poor and the wealthy would often ignore moral codes. The poor were too invisible or destitute to care, and the wealthy...well, what laws even today apply to them? The middle class, however, were the ones expected to live to the moral standards of the Church, and were executed accordingly for violating it.

I doubt that that much has changed. Politicians are not expected to live to moral standards, because they are above it. And the poor? We don't expect them to be moral anyway. And that leaves the middle class once again.

Melon
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Old 12-14-2005, 09:17 PM   #415
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^ Which made Jesus going to the very poor so revolutionary.

And His call for holiness, from both the top and the bottom, so dangerous.
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Old 12-14-2005, 09:18 PM   #416
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


Sorry but I am confused by this. Are you not a secularist yourself?
Yess and sarcasm/satire is impossible to pull off without a voice.
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Old 12-14-2005, 09:19 PM   #417
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Yess and sarcasm/satire is impossible to pull off without a voice.
Ah that old sarcasm has confused me (again). The 'good theocracy' in italics was a pointer.
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Old 12-14-2005, 09:25 PM   #418
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Why then the admonition to submit to governing authorities if there was not a difference in standards? If government followed the Bible as a guide, then we would automatically be happy with government and follow it joyfully without need for warning.

Alternatively, this suggests that we should live under a strict biblical theocracy - I doubt anyone here would call for that considering some of the writings governing other aspects of life.

A perfect government won't happen until Christ's return.
You are starting your argument with "why then".

That´s all your personal interpretation.

You couldn´t quote any passage on this issue - before, you clearly said you have.

Such an admonition (and I would like you to quote the admonition too, because i couldn´t find it) could be interpreted in a thousand ways. It could just be another warning to avoid useless bloodshed. A warning like "Better give in, before you lose your life".

Like I pointed out earlier, this has nothing to do with theocracy. I am not saying our laws should be written according to the Bible. I am saying that, if our politicans and lawyers are good Christians, they should make use of "what they can morally learn" from the Bible.

According to the example of Tookie, this means that Arnold should have granted clemency to Tookie. He should have acted according to Jesus´ words: "if there´s someone without guilt amongst you, throw the first stone". Putting his career over his belief just shows what lame kind of person he really is.
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Old 12-14-2005, 09:31 PM   #419
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Politicians are not expected to live to moral standards, because they are above it. And the poor? We don't expect them to be moral anyway. And that leaves the middle class once again.

Melon
Exactly. My opinion is that everyone who calls himself Christian should be expected to live by the moral standards defined by Jesus Christ. Everything else is hypocritical.
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Old 12-14-2005, 09:36 PM   #420
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I am a strong believer in the separation of church and state, so I cannot disagree with the notion that morality should be personal and ethics should be defined by reason. The two are not mutually exclusive; I would find neglecting the poor and giving tax cuts to the rich to be unethical and immoral.

However, if we're suddenly going to build a large consensus that secularism is now the ideal, then I want opposition to gay marriage to end immediately, for instance. I'm asking for consistency. Of course, what I realistically expect is for conservatives to hug the fence; that is, to use both the Bible and secularism to further their aims. If there's one thing I cannot stand more than anything, it's hypocrisy and double standards.

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