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Old 12-14-2005, 07:27 PM   #391
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


I have numbered the above.

1. Sure there is a differencve,the question I pose is: how can you BELIEVE one thing and SUPPORT another? I either have to question your belief or your political opinion.

2. Is this meant to be cynical? If yes, it is an offense to me. If not, I ask myself what on earth you wanted to express with that statement. You think Jesus was ok with being crucified? It sounds as if you said: "Jesus, he took it all, and he was all for it". Blasphemy at its best... I don´t know how to interprete your words any different. When Jesus was crucified, he called from the cross. "God, my God, why did you leave me?" ...to imply that he was ok with capital punishment (and especially in his own case) is really... I don´t know what to say

..other than to cite the warning of the Bible not to twist its words.
A clear reading of Scripture shows that it is not a blueprint for government, and that the commands cited regarding murder apply to us individually. Thus, I BELIEVE that according to Scripture, government is capable of instituting capital punishment.


And please don't question my standing as a Christian again.
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Old 12-14-2005, 07:29 PM   #392
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
There is far too much room for fallability in that passage.
Open that door and you create a standard that applies to all of Scripture.
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Old 12-14-2005, 07:31 PM   #393
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
This would mean that governments that do allow capital punishment for adultery, homosexuality, etc. are established by God and those killings would be right for they follow the law.
We could obviously cite dozens of governments over history that we would find not following even a minimum of God's law.

Do you think God says, "Oops, how did he get elected?"
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Old 12-14-2005, 07:37 PM   #394
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


"Die that way" at the hands of a judicial system that employed capital punishment. The use of capital punishment is consistent with the breadth of Scripture.
Wrong. The use of capital punishment is consistent in the Old Testamtent - not in the new. Also, the new Testament criticised part of the Old Testament harshly.

I hope you are not failing to recognize the meaning of the New Testament. It is true that some parts of the Old haven´t lost their meaning. However, the bible is an incredibly big book!

Passages of the Old Test contradict other passages of the new Test.

In your world view, it seems to be different.

Maybe I am wrong, but can you explain what your (fig. for the Christian Right that defends capital punishment) opinions are based on? I have the impresssion that

a) every sentence and every word in the Bible is right - it is infallible because directly from God

b) when you find a sentence or word that is opposite to your opinion - or when others point it out - you aren´t able to say "well, this part say that and the other part says that" and to make up your own mind because of a)

c) as soon as someone points out that your way of dealing with "real-life-issues" interferes with the Christian moral, you use one or more of the following ways to cop out:
1. either you emphasize the segregation of chuch and state all of a sudden (when in other cases, a mix-up is acceptable - for example, when Bush gets all religious in his statements)
2. or you concentrate on the passages of the Bible that suit your argument and give them some additional interpretation so they fit your argument
3. or you just don´t reply to the argument

d) as soon as someone points out that Bush or the administration are not good Christians because of their actions which are directly opposed to the teachings of the Bible, you use one or more of the following ways to cop out (see c. 1-3)


I think that way of dealing with the Bible is wrong.

Do me a favor. Check it for yourself. Ask ten priests from all over the world (not ten guys like Robertson though - I mean serious, independent priests, they can be Catholic, Protestant, whatever, but they should all be from different social groups or countries, to be fair) if they think capital punishment is supported by the Bible and if they think it is morally ok for Christians to be pro-capital punishment. Will you do that for me? You will be surprised by the results.

I bet with you that everyone except of some extreme American conservative church members will be against it.

This is why I qualify the so-called "Christian Right" (and its positions) as a blasphemous sect with morals and arguments that are twisted to fit the immediate advantage. There is no consistency and no true Christian substance in this movement.

Also, I have the impression that the majority of the "Christian Right" is rich. Jesus lived with and spoke for the poor. It is logical that the motives and way of living of those two groups are direct opposites.
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Old 12-14-2005, 07:40 PM   #395
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


We could obviously cite dozens of governments over history that we would find not following even a minimum of God's law.
Which would make Paul's words fallable.
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Do you think God says, "Oops, how did he get elected?"
No, I think God says, "why did they elect that person I thought I taught them better."
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Old 12-14-2005, 07:46 PM   #396
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
And please don't question my standing as a Christian again.
It is the duty of a Christian to speak with his brothers on those issues. You are asking me to shut up when I worry for your stand?

nbcrusader, I just echoed the Bible because I am seriously worried about your stand! This is not a trick and no fake argument.

You have two possibilities: either we can continue to discuss, then you will have to accept that I question where you stand - just like you may question me, when something I say seems to be totally out of line and makles your "Christian heart" mourn.

The other possibility is that I´m not questioning your opinion or your standing; ok, then the whole discussion is fruitless and we should not continue to waste precious time.

Decide which of the two you like better, please.
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:04 PM   #397
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


In a nutsehll, you have taken one part of the Old Testament and ignored another.

If you are trying to lead a Christian life, do not hate others = that is the clear application of "thou shall not kill" as explained by Jesus.

It in no way eliminates the consequences of sin - including a judicial systems imposition of the death penalty.
Here´s the concrete example - really, I just need to quote you.

Thou shalt not kill does NOT only mean do not hate others. It means YOU SHOULD NOT KILL. If this command meant "don´t hate others", what would speak against killing someone, as long as you don´t hate him? Kill everyone you don´t hate.

For real, thou shalt not kill means that YOU SHOULD NOT KILL EVEN IF YOU HATE. You shouldn´t kill Tookie, even if you hate him because he has killed someone you knew. That´s the IDEAL behind the commandment.

It ABSOLUTELY ELIMINATES the imposition of death penalty because this is one man judging another. It does not eliminate the consequence of sin - the Church, nbcrusader, ALWAYS - for centuries! - insisted that it is upon God to judge.

Thou shalt not kill means: Man, you do not have the right to take the life of another. You also don´t have the right if the person you want to kill is guilty of taking the life of someone else. Leave that to me - it is Gods will to to judge or to forgive.

By using capital punishpemt, one is directly acting against the will of God. This must be clear. Just as crystal clear as the command "Thou shalt not kill".
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:08 PM   #398
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy


I agree...but that's not what my question is about.

Diamond, please explain if/how that article has anything to do with the juxtapostion of a Christian being for the death penalty.
First of all, i need to apologize earlier for posting those gruesome pictures of the human beings that Tookie slaughtered. i m glad sicy removed them.
I did it out of anger after listening to a talk show host on the radio.
BonoVoxSS was right, if they were my kids or loved ones slaughtered out of respect for them , Iwouldn't want their death pictures posted, so sincerely i apologize to those I've offended here.


AliEnvy-

Conservative Christians and Liberal Christians view interpretation of scripture differently.

I think in the orginal translation of the commandment-
"Thou Shall Not Kill"
The original meaning was "thou shall not shed innocent blood"

I mean think about it if you took "Thou Shall Not Kill" literally, no bugs, pests would ever get swatted, but i digress.

You would need to check w somebody versed in Old Testament studies, as I only have a cursory understanding.

Another disconnect between Christians Philosophies is forvive your enemies.

Yes it does say that, but ppl take it a step furthur..Christ never said, "Invite a mass murderer over for tea"..

We are suppose to forgive all men but not usurp the cosequences of their actions.

Let God handle the rest.

Hope this makes sense.
Love you guys, my lefties, righties and fellow metrosexuals.

Peace,

db9
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:09 PM   #399
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A couple of thoughts:

First, your absolute prohibition against killing applies unless you don't want it to apply (as with tyrants - a position not supported by Scripture).

Second, you take one passage from the Old Testament and use it to negate another that clearly calls for capital punishment. God gave both commands, why is one thrown away?

And if man is not to judge another, then we must do away with our judicial system.
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:10 PM   #400
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


It is the duty of a Christian to speak with his brothers on those issues. You are asking me to shut up when I worry for your stand?

nbcrusader, I just echoed the Bible because I am seriously worried about your stand! This is not a trick and no fake argument.

You have two possibilities: either we can continue to discuss, then you will have to accept that I question where you stand - just like you may question me, when something I say seems to be totally out of line and makles your "Christian heart" mourn.

The other possibility is that I´m not questioning your opinion or your standing; ok, then the whole discussion is fruitless and we should not continue to waste precious time.

Decide which of the two you like better, please.
If you want to compare Scriptures, I am more than happy to participate. If we are to start the one way converstation that your Catholic beliefs are the only true beliefs, then you argue alone.
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:11 PM   #401
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


A clear reading of Scripture shows that it is not a blueprint for government, and that the commands cited regarding murder apply to us individually.
So you are saying that my reading of the scripture is not clear enough? Please elaborate, and quote the passages where the Bible itself says that its moral conception is limited to individual behavior.
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:17 PM   #402
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


So you are saying that my reading of the scripture is not clear enough? Please elaborate, and quote the passages where the Bible itself says that its moral conception is limited to individual behavior.
Dread and I have both posted quotes from Scripture in this thread. You are free to scroll back and take a look.

I realize full well they don't mesh with your beliefs.
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:29 PM   #403
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
A clear reading of Scripture shows that it is not a blueprint for government, and that the commands cited regarding murder apply to us individually.
Very good points. I will remember this the next time there's a "moral crusade" in this country.

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Old 12-14-2005, 08:32 PM   #404
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
First, your absolute prohibition against killing applies unless you don't want it to apply (as with tyrants - a position not supported by Scripture).
No, not until I don´t want it to apply. I have quoted numerous examples that have illustrated my point of view, starting from the 13th century. They didn´t want to apply that exact prohibition 800 years ago - not me now. That makes quite a difference, in case you were unaware of that.

I take the right to add texts and interpretations of the Bible to our discussion, like I did before with the example of the tyrants. You´re free to do that too [however, we should limit that to serious interpreations, please; that means: medieval text, Pope, Luther, ... everyone widely and historically accepted, so to say - falls into that category; whereas the latest newspaper article or religious extremists should not have a say in those matters. So please lets stick to sources with an actual meaning].

Sure enough, we can compare Scriptures and our interpretations. I´m not saying that my beliefs are the only true ones, but I will say when I feel your statements are contradicting general Christian belief. However, I would like it to be clear from the start that I´m not intending to attack you personally - but probably your arguments and your views.
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:40 PM   #405
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I didn't quote Paul earlier in the thread because he is one of my least favorite people!

I can't help it...I have a hard time quoting him when I do not agree with him on other issues.
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