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Old 12-14-2005, 01:26 PM   #361
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


If written 30-60 years ago, you would be expecting Jesus to say "Live by the sword, die by the electic chair, gas chamber, firing squad, hanging, lethal injection, etc." It doesn't make sense to establish that requirement for His words.
If it was written today and he said live by the gun, die by the gun.

It wouldn't work, for the gun is not a means of capital punishment. Which is my point. For the sword, to my knowledge, was not a form of capital punishment at the time.

That's why I have always seen it as a warning of lifestyle.
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:28 PM   #362
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Originally posted by financeguy
I am confused by both sides in this debate - to be blunt, why should the writings of scholars and sheep herders 2,000 or more years ago have any significant bearing on our current criminal justice system?
Exactly. It's fine to base your personal opinions on your religious beliefs, or to view your personal world through the framework of your faith. However, as a means to sway a society, or to base laws upon, it's not sound at all.

I prefer to look at secular facts and logic. Then again, I'm not overly religious.
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:30 PM   #363
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Was Jesus giving a sermon when he said "Live by the sword, die by the sword."?

I still think this is being taken out of context from the things going on in the garden.
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:33 PM   #364
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

The process of which we designed the methods, the process of the legal system is all premeditated.

Well this one is arguable I admit. A speeding ticket is not done out of malice, it's done for the safety of others. Prison sentences are designed to make the streets safer. There is no malice here. But to take a step beyond making the streets safer to a "you deserve death" I see as coming with malice. Because a life sentence would make this country safer. We don't use an eye for an eye method for any other form of punishment except with capital punishment.
I think we will have to disagree here on both points. There is no premeditated result for a person charged with murder. We have an elaborate process that allows us to determine the appropriate punishment for the crime.

Actually, the "eye for an eye" concept is used in most forms of punishment. It is a check on excessive punishment for all forms of crime. If I run over your mailbox, I will be required to make restitution to make you whole - not buy you a new house. We take great care to limit punitive damages to very specific instances - and do not allow them in a criminal context.

Tookie didn't get the death penalty for starting the Crips (though, plenty of people have died at the hands of this group). He got the death penalty for taking the lives of four innocent people.

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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
So the killing of homosexuals by some societies by law, isn't murder?
I believe this is limited to certain brands of Islam, and I would in no way defend such a practice and would call for an end to it. Perhaps we can tackle that subject in a different thread.
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:34 PM   #365
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


I disagree about it being "semantics".

If people are quoting "thou shalt not kill" as an argument against a legally formed governement it is plain wrong.

But I ask once again, when previous and even current governments have laws that say being homosexual, adultery, treason are all crimes punishable by death then is it not murder just because the law made it legal?
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:35 PM   #366
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Was Jesus giving a sermon when he said "Live by the sword, die by the sword."?

I still think this is being taken out of context from the things going on in the garden.
I completely agree.
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:35 PM   #367
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
It wouldn't work, for the gun is not a means of capital punishment. Which is my point. For the sword, to my knowledge, was not a form of capital punishment at the time.
Sure it was. Beheadings were done by sword before the invention of the guillotine.
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:38 PM   #368
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Originally posted by financeguy
I am confused by both sides in this debate - to be blunt, why should the writings of scholars and sheep herders 2,000 or more years ago have any significant bearing on our current criminal justice system?
Because those writings have a significantly larger impact on our world today than you acknowledge.

If you want, you can raise the secular arguments for and against capital punishment.
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:39 PM   #369
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


I think we will have to disagree here on both points. There is no premeditated result for a person charged with murder. We have an elaborate process that allows us to determine the appropriate punishment for the crime.
As a lawyer, isn't there some decision as to if you will try for the death penalty or not? Or is it automatic given the crime?

Wouldn't this be premeditation?

Two guys can commit the same crime in the same city, but it's not guaranteed both will be tried for the death penalty. Am I right?
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:44 PM   #370
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Sure it was. Beheadings were done by sword before the invention of the guillotine.
Well I guess we would have to have a history expert here, but I would think the ax was used.

But regardless, I think we got too deep into discussing the one line and should have stuck with the context, which I think Dread has done a good job of pointing out.
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:48 PM   #371
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


As a lawyer, isn't there some decision as to if you will try for the death penalty or not? Or is it automatic given the crime?

Wouldn't this be premeditation?

Two guys can commit the same crime in the same city, but it's not guaranteed both will be tried for the death penalty. Am I right?
I'd have to look that one up. I know there are a number of special circumstances that allow a DA to request capital punishment, but I don't recall if the law requires a DA to request capital punishment. I'm fairly certain it can be waived.

It is also handled independently of the determination of guilt or innocence. A separate, mini-trial is conducted on the issue of capital punishment and a jury makes a recommendation to the judge based on that trial. Even then, a judge can reject the recommendation of the jury.
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:54 PM   #372
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


I'd have to look that one up. I know there are a number of special circumstances that allow a DA to request capital punishment, but I don't recall if the law requires a DA to request capital punishment. I'm fairly certain it can be waived.

It is also handled independently of the determination of guilt or innocence. A separate, mini-trial is conducted on the issue of capital punishment and a jury makes a recommendation to the judge based on that trial. Even then, a judge can reject the recommendation of the jury.
Yeah I know it's done independently, but I was just curious about the other part.

My years of watching Law & Order led me to believe it was up the DA to an extent. Therefore if somehow you had a DA that didn't believe in capital punishment then you wouldn't ever have any sentences from that DA. So then it turns into a political battle to get a DA that did believe.
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:56 PM   #373
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I've enjoyed the discussion, see you all in a few hours.
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:58 PM   #374
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Thank you for the discussion.
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Old 12-14-2005, 02:08 PM   #375
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The George Bernard Shaw quote pretty much sums it all for me so I guess that's the best answer I'm going to get on my initial question.

Even though it's not any more meaningful to the topic, I am still curious whether there are there are Bible passages that are more straight-forward in describing state-sanctioned execution as an acceptable, moral punishment for murder in God's view, and more specifically, Jesus' words.
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