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Old 12-14-2005, 04:17 AM   #301
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon

Why grant martyrdom to these tyrants by killing them? I often prefer the fate granted to Rudolf Hess, Hitler's deputy. He was given a life sentence, and spent the last 21 years of his life sentence completely alone, left to degenerate into madness until the ripe old age of 93. Execution would have been the easy way out for him.
To be fair, I also should add that the quoted Jesuit authors who wrote about the tyrants only excused killing if there was no other possibility - so to say, no other way to get rid of them. Means, if you can overthrow them and they rot in prison, that´s always better than killing them. What if you can´t overthrow them, can´t catch them, can´t put them in prison? As to Hitler, some tried to assassinate him, but did not succeed. (If they had succeeded) I don´t think anyone would be opposed to the assassination, given the history of WWII.

Indeed, the discussions of the Jesuits also focused on the problem what would happen when the tyrant was removed; one could say that action against a tyrant would only be supported when the chances for success were high enough, basically to avoid unnecessary bloodshed.
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:00 AM   #302
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Originally posted by elevateandy
Thank you for the compliment....I usually vote Republican.

...

You should read the book "ATLAS SHRUGGED"
I guess this explains a lot of your attitude. Sorry, you can't just go and kill everyone in your way. Ayn Rand's world is not the real world.

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Old 12-14-2005, 08:02 AM   #303
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I think that rational self-interest has merits above Christian compassion. Furthurmore I would seriously question where one could find blatant justification for murder in objectivism.
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:23 AM   #304
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy
Diamond, if God means something to you, how is it that the death penalty is acceptable?
http://www.townhall.com/opinion/colu...04/170335.html

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Old 12-14-2005, 08:31 AM   #305
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Well it was said by Jesus. But it's widely misinterpreted.

It was stated when a disciple drew his sword and cutt off the ear of a soldier.

Which holds the biggest irony, for if Jesus ever wished any vengence or violent justice it would have been against those who wrongly punished him.
Thank you for clarifying...sounded like an Old Testament line...now we're headed in the right direction but I really want to hear from the pro-death penalty Christians on this. Personally I read that as a description of karma.

There's got to be more to it than that?

This one line twisted out of context trumps all the rest of Jesus' teachings?
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:37 AM   #306
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Quote:
Originally posted by elevateandy

...I also love being right. Deep down inside..in places you don't talk about at parties...you know I am right.
Way to avoid any real debate.

And I'm really sorry if you think this country is "right" right now.


Quote:
Originally posted by elevateandy

You should read the book "ATLAS SHRUGGED"
Oh, I already have, thank you.

Loved Fountainhead, but don't really care for her philosophy.
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:44 AM   #307
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Seriously Diamond, that's your answer to her question?

Well then I guess you're right AliEnvy, you won't find an answer.
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:45 AM   #308
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


http://www.townhall.com/opinion/colu...04/170335.html

If those of us who are for the death penalty have blood on our hands when the state executes an innocent man, abolitionists -- now including George Will -- have the blood of innocents on their hands every time a convicted murderer murders again.

Recently, a former Roman Catholic priest imprisoned for child molestation was murdered in prison by a convicted murderer. His blood is on the hands of the abolitionists.



That priest was murdered by that guy for HIS own personal reasons, to say that people who are against the death penalty have that priest's blood on his hands is ridiculous and unfair. Not to mention the fact that the priest never would have been in prison if he hadn't committed those heinous molestations. Maybe we should have just given him the death penalty too, problem solved. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? But why focus on that when you can blame murders in prison on "abolitionists" .
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:47 AM   #309
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I think that rational self-interest has merits above Christian compassion.
If it didn't we wouldn't live in a free country.

Where do you draw the line?

What I'm looking for here is a Christian's perspective on WHY rational self-interest merits above Christian belief in the context of state-ordered execution when there is a viable alternative.
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:56 AM   #310
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Well in that case it is quite simple, in the context of the state law built off sound logical axioms should take priority over scripture. To preserve the division between church and state a secular legal system must be preserved, I think that religious individuals can recognise the importance of this.

I draw the line anywhere where the issue of God enters the room of governing over society. I think that a sound case against capital punishment can be made without dragging morality fiction into the fray.
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Old 12-14-2005, 09:10 AM   #311
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer

I think that a sound case against capital punishment can be made without dragging morality fiction into the fray.
I agree...but that's not what my question is about.

Diamond, please explain if/how that article has anything to do with the juxtapostion of a Christian being for the death penalty.
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Old 12-14-2005, 09:35 AM   #312
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer

I draw the line anywhere where the issue of God enters the room of governing over society.
Ok, let's take it down to the basic question then and get away from God and society for a moment.

You either believe the death penalty is morally wrong or you believe it's the fair price to pay...both viewpoints have validity.

What I want to know is, how can someone who believes it's the fair price to pay AND is Christian, justify it morally?
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Old 12-14-2005, 10:50 AM   #313
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AliEnvy

you´re not letting it go, are you?

I doubt you will get a serious reply, because generally there is no Christian moral justification for taking someone´s life (except of the case I have been mentioning).

But please, keep trying
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Old 12-14-2005, 10:52 AM   #314
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I do not think Jesus' teachings were necessesarily a set of guidlines by which a government is supposed to operate.

Just my 2 Cents....Give to Ceasar waht is Ceasar's.
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Old 12-14-2005, 11:01 AM   #315
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CAESAR - not cease-r ;)

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I do not think Jesus' teachings were necessesarily a set of guidlines by which a government is supposed to operate.
No one implied that. The question AliEnvy posed is

"What I want to know is, how can someone who believes it's the fair price to pay AND is Christian, justify it morally?"
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