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Old 12-14-2005, 12:16 AM   #286
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Anyway...

All I know is last night before turning in, I offered up a prayer to God accompanied with my sweetheart that Tookie's soul be showed some mercy and that the ppl he killed here and hurt here forgive him and was glad he attempted to do some good with his life while awaiting completion of his sentence. He had changed his ways and encouraged kids to to keep out of gangs. Maybe this was part of God's grace working here, some could speculate.

I was also glad to hear what he told Jesse Jackson to not avenge his death but to remember him by doing good things as he has tried to do during alot of his prison sentence.

In the end, Tookie took his penality like a man.

Liberals need to stop calling completion of a prison sentence vengence, when it's in fact justice carried out.

That's all.

And no, nobody's giddy about watching any murderer die, if they are, then thet have their own issues to deal with.

Peace,

db9
Just wondering, but do you have any FYM comments that don't mention the word "liberal"? You seem to have a curious fixation with it...
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Old 12-14-2005, 12:18 AM   #287
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Quote:
Originally posted by phanan


Just wondering, but do you have any FYM comments that don't mention the word "liberal"? You seem to have a curious fixation with it...
no.
;
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Old 12-14-2005, 12:20 AM   #288
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Diamond, if God means something to you, how is it that the death penalty is acceptable?
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Old 12-14-2005, 12:22 AM   #289
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Quote:
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Diamond, if God means something to you,
He just likes to play God.
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Old 12-14-2005, 12:25 AM   #290
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Gift given by who? And why are we the ones to take it away?

Except living with the burden that some may be innocent.

LOL Evidence shows this guarantee is BS. I'm sure prison is a vacation.

You said 24 hours... I'm not playing with words. That's the only way a 24 hour system would work. Do you know how many innocent people we would have killed? Don't be foolish.
Don't be foolish- I am not the one who can't comprehend?

I said 24 hours from CONVICTION not the crime.

I said IF life is a gift than why do we grant a person like Tookie life in prison? He did not.

You should run under the Democratic ticket and take old Jesse Jackson as your mate- you have a gift for twisting things.
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Old 12-14-2005, 12:33 AM   #291
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Don't be foolish- I am not the one who can't comprehend?

I said 24 hours from CONVICTION not the crime.
Which would eliminate the appeals process and you would have killed many innocent people.


Quote:
Originally posted by elevateandy

I said IF life is a gift than why do we grant a person like Tookie life in prison?
Now you are just lying.
You said:
Quote:
Life is a gift no matter where it is spent.
Quote:
Originally posted by elevateandy

You should run under the Democratic ticket and take old Jesse Jackson as your mate- you have a gift for twisting things.
And you make a great Republican politician. You lie and don't bring any facts to the table.
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Old 12-14-2005, 12:45 AM   #292
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At the end of the day, arguing the ins and outs of the justice system is meaningless.

You either believe capital punishment is morally wrong or you believe it's the fair price to pay.

What I would like to know, from Diamond or any other self-professed Christian who is pro-death penalty, is how you rationalize it in the context of your spiritual beliefs.
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:04 AM   #293
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Thank you for the links. They made for some interesting reading. A couple of thoughts:

1. I'm not sure a case was made to distinguish, on a Scriptural basis, the difference between a death penalty and the killing of a tyrant. Actually, no Scripture was cited except for the references to "righteous Hebrews overthrowing tyrants" and "he who receives the sword deserves to perish by the sword." It should be noted that righteous Hebrews killed many more than just tyrants. And perishing by the sword suggests the Old Testament establishment of a death penalty (one of the few, if not the only, law mentioned in each of the five books of the Pentateuch).

2. Assuming we accept the permissibility of killing tyrants, who is the tyrant in this case? The governor was not tasked with establishing guilt or innocence, nor was he asked to select a punishment. His only role was to evaluate the case to determine if the circumstances justified commuting Tookie’s sentence. On the other side, you have a man who established one of the most violent gangs in Southern California – one that has led to countless bloodshed of gang members and innocent bystanders alike. Tookie seems far more tyrant like to me.

3. I noticed that one link was to a Catholic encyclopedia. You claim that the Governor betrayed Austrian values. Yet those Austrian values are defined by religious reference material. To what degree would you call Austria a theocracy if such values are defined by Catholic writings?

just a quick reply, tireeeed party etc.

2. Tookie may be like a bad man, but surely he cant be a tyrant. after all, he didnt have any political leadership function. and we´re talking about political tyrants. leaders who suppress. i´m not saying arnold is a tyrant - he´s elected and everything. that whole discussion is a side topic to the ongoing one.

3. first many Austrians are Catholics. So you know, those things go hand in hand.. I would not say the Austrian society is Christian; you probably would be reluctant to call the American society Christian, because there is freedom of religion and many other religions are practiced in Austria and in the United States.

However, with Austrian values I did not necessarily mean Christian values - but rather our way of jurisdiction and execution. We dont have death penalty, ok we also dont have lots of criminality (compared to other countries) or lotsa guns, ..
in the political climate here it is unthinkable that death penalty is introduced (whereas we have to mention the racist behavior of the Austrian police; about every year an African is killed, and it was always a "mistake").

so I mentioned the values of Austrian society rather than Christian ones in that case, even if it is absolutely a Christian value to be against death penalty (excluding the killing of tyrants, like discussed above).

whoop.
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:11 AM   #294
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Europeans outraged at Schwarzenegger



What ever achievements Schwarzenegger led to the naming of the sports stadium are now gone because he did not block a death penalty handed down 20 years ago?

Isn't this just another form of vengence?
shall we quote a little more of the article.


The execution of convicted killer Stanley Tookie Williams sparked outrage Tuesday throughout Europe, which has a deep aversion to capital punishment sustained by the painful memory of state-organized murder during the Nazi era.

The disappointment was particularly strong in Austria, native country of Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, where many had hoped the former bodybuilder and film star would spare the 51-year-old Williams.

(...)

Six decades after World War II, opposition to the death penalty remains deeply entrenched in Germany and Austria, a stance resulting from remorse for the evils committed by these countries under Adolf Hitler and an attempt to prevent future state-sponsored killing.

(...)

At the Vatican, Pope Benedict XVI's top official for justice matters denounced the execution.

"We know the death penalty doesn't resolve anything," said Cardinal Renato Martino. "Even a criminal is worthy of respect because he is a human being. The death penalty is a negation of human dignity."
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:21 AM   #295
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy
Thou shalt not kill.

Pretty simple, yes?
Noooooo..... its not that simple, according to Robertson.

And other self-proclaimed conservative Christians.

You know what... I´m a Catholic. They are not following the rule of the Pope. They don´t follow Luther either. Or did he advocate death penalty? No, he didn´t.

Hah. The American Conservative Christian Sect. I´d wait to see them waving their pamphlets in underground stations like the witness Jehovas do, but I suspect they´re far too powerful to need that kind of promotion.
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:35 AM   #296
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Well to be honest, I'm not interested in the Pope's rules or Luther's rules or Robertson's rules.

That's why I went straight to the commandments. They didn't come with subparagraphs of applicable circumstances.

So I'm still waiting for an actual explanation, if there is one.
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:46 AM   #297
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Quote:
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So I'm still waiting for an actual explanation, if there is one.
I can tell you the only piece of scripture that they will use and its;

"live by the sword and die by the sword"

because I've seen it offered several times in trying to justify the two conflicting beliefs.

But that piece of scripture say nothing to me about government sanctioned punishment. It speaks to me of lifestyle. If you live the life of a gun toting mobster you will probably die that way.
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:52 AM   #298
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Well, maybe that piece of scripture is fine if you're Jewish, although I prefer your interpretation.

But if you are Christian (whatever denomination), then I believe the lesson is turn the other cheek.

But maybe I'm missing something...so set me straight, Diamond.
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Old 12-14-2005, 02:04 AM   #299
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Well, maybe that piece of scripture is fine if you're Jewish
Well it was said by Jesus. But it's widely misinterpreted.

It was stated when a disciple drew his sword and cutt off the ear of a soldier.

Which holds the biggest irony, for if Jesus ever wished any vengence or violent justice it would have been against those who wrongly punished him.
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Old 12-14-2005, 04:01 AM   #300
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Which would eliminate the appeals process and you would have killed many innocent people.



Now you are just lying.
You said:


And you make a great Republican politician. You lie and don't bring any facts to the table.


Thank you for the compliment....I usually vote Republican.

...I also love being right. Deep down inside..in places you don't talk about at parties...you know I am right.

I thought after this last election- it would show you people that you better stop relying on bullshit to get elected.

You should read the book "ATLAS SHRUGGED"
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