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Old 12-13-2005, 08:43 PM   #256
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Either way what is the point of it? It's better off to just kill him.
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:47 PM   #257
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Originally posted by elevateandy
Either way what is the point of it? It's better off to just kill him.
How is it better off? How does killing him serve the public good?
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:48 PM   #258
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy


Actually what you said was:

"Opinions are nothing without the ability to back those opinions up with facts, or reasoning and logic."

The definition of opinion is: a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty.
Context?! Have you looked at my comment giving the context of Justin and my conversation?

An opinion that something is right using facts or logic, is a valid opinion when discussing law.

An opinion that something is wrong using facts or logic, is a valid opinion when discussing law.

An opinion that something is wrong because you find it "icky" is not a valid opinion when discussing law.

Now can we quit the semantics or do we have to go on?
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:51 PM   #259
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Quote:
Originally posted by elevateandy
It's better off to just kill him.
Because revenge is sweet.

Playing God is cool.

And lowering yourself to the level of that of murderers makes this world better off.
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:52 PM   #260
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Originally posted by Irvine511

what are the rational, good-for-society benefits -- vengence does not seem applicable here, as it's entirely emotional and only for the good of the immediate members of a victim's family -- of the death penalty? why should it be legal, rather than why should it be made illegal?
Hmmm, you can't really dismiss vengence since no other argument for the death penalty as a valid consequence holds up under scrutiny.

And from many posts here, seems vengence reaches far beyond the victims' families.
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:02 PM   #261
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


It says thou shall not kill.

Love thy enemy.

Love thy neighbor as thyself.
Well, then i suppose that by endorsing this you are also getting rid of gay marriage.

The Bible is not the Constitution.

I don't see how we're still discussing this.

Murder is bad. What is the only way we can TRY to prevent murder? By coming up with a steep punishment for it. That is what the death penalty is for in California. If you murder someone in California you get the death penalty. I don't see how this is still open for discussion.
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:07 PM   #262
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Well, then i suppose that by endorsing this you are also getting rid of gay marriage.

The Bible is not the Constitution.
First of all he asked what the Bible said, not the Constitution.

My Bible says nothing about homosexuality.

But nice try.

Quote:
By coming up with a steep punishment for it.
And that seems to be working great so far.

Quote:
I don't see how we're still discussing this.
Funny thing is, you haven't discussed anything about the subject.
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:09 PM   #263
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
Well, then i suppose that by endorsing this you are also getting rid of gay marriage.

The Bible is not the Constitution.

I don't see how we're still discussing this.
I'll agree with this. However, you can't ignore how conservatives have selectively used the Bible as an excuse to make homosexuals as unwanted and miserable as possible. But then when it comes to the death penalty, we're told that the Bible is not the Constitution.

I would prefer consistent secular arguments, for the record. I have outlined my opposition to the death penalty based on my own moral disapproval of it, granted. This is mainly because the death penalty is, at least, an example of public "morality" being used to kill someone. What bothers me about anti-gay campaigns is not the fact that people have personal moral opposition to homosexuality, but that they feel that their own personal moral opposition outweighs the civil rights and individual freedom to be homosexuals, according to the freedom of their own consciences.

Ironically, from a religious POV, abortion gives fetuses the fast track to heaven (since they are without sin) and the death penalty could send a unrepentant prisoner to hell, but, if given another 10-20 years to think about it, might have thought differently.

I guess that's why I see a distinction, but you would be correct. I think any legislative discussion for or against the death penalty and abortion should be on strictly secular grounds. The Bible is not the Constitution.

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Old 12-13-2005, 09:09 PM   #264
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Brown eyed boy...Well I don't know that it's proven the death penalty does anything to bring down murder rates in the US...the opposite in a lot of cases for whatever reason.

I do agree that, as much as I think we ought to get rid of the death penalty, it is the current law in California and maybe the guy should've considered that before he savargely murdered four people.
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:16 PM   #265
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy

Murder is bad. What is the only way we can TRY to prevent murder? By coming up with a steep punishment for it. That is what the death penalty is for in California. If you murder someone in California you get the death penalty. I don't see how this is still open for discussion.
Ok, the pro-death penalty Christians are hiding at the moment so let's put God's rules aside for now.

Statistics consistently show that the death penalty is an ineffective deterrent. It's also more expensive to administer than life sentences, which is arguably also a steep punishment. Nevermind that the only ones who are actually executed simply couldn't afford a skilled defense team.

So other than pure, raw, vengence - what's the purpose of the death penalty?
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:18 PM   #266
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http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/arti...cid=12&did=169

Murder rates in US, pretty shocking numbers in case anyone is curious

Canada's national rate is about 2.1/100,000, no death penalty


I can't think of anyone in the process of or planning a murder, stops, and thinks, hmmm, if I get caught, I might get the death penalty. It is the last thing on their minds, they are psycho, that's why they kill people. They aren't thinking rationally anyway otherwise murder would be the last thing they would consider.
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:20 PM   #267
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy


Ok, the pro-death penalty Christians are hiding at the moment so let's put God's rules aside for now.

Statistics consistently show that the death penalty is an ineffective deterrent. It's also more expensive to administer than life sentences, which is arguably also a steep punishment. Nevermind that the only ones who are actually executed simply couldn't afford a skilled defense team.

So other than pure, raw, vengence - what's the purpose of the death penalty?
What could be steeper than a death penalty though?

If criminals aren't afraid of dying before commiting a crime then what'll stop them?
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:20 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon

I would prefer consistent secular arguments, for the record.
Me too...I'm still waiting for some...
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:21 PM   #269
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If any of my friends or family were murdered, I would want the death penalty to be sentenced for the convicted murderer. I believe that the murderer should have his life taken away for taking away the lives of others. However, a murderer is separate from the judge and executioner in that he unjustly and cruely kills the innocent. Whereas the judge and executioner legally and with prior reason (i.e. the murderer's crime) sentence the convict to be put to death. Simply if one kills the innocent, he has forfeited his right to life.
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:23 PM   #270
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The death penalty is the ultimate denial of liberty, a secular argument could be made that on that basis it is a justifiable punishment in cases of murder, one could also envision cases where people could be rendered brain dead or more malicious yet a state of conciousness without being able to control their bodies.
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