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Old 12-13-2005, 07:40 PM   #241
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
I respect your opinion Bonovox and I hope you do the same with me.
I respect the fact that everyone has a right to their opinion. And I will listen to everyone's opionion. But they have to be able to back up their opinion.

Opinions are nothing without the ability to back those opinions up with facts, or reasoning and logic.
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Old 12-13-2005, 07:44 PM   #242
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Opinions are nothing without the ability to back those opinions up with facts, or reasoning and logic.
You forgot to mention faith...
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Old 12-13-2005, 07:47 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy


You forgot to mention faith...
Well those don't hold up everywhere.
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Old 12-13-2005, 07:50 PM   #244
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So an opinion to support the death penalty based purely on the notion of vengence isn't a valid viewpoint?
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Old 12-13-2005, 07:53 PM   #245
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I wanted to reply to this, but I think I have to try and take a break from this place for a while. I don't think it's good for my health; and as physically ill as I've made myself over the last couple days over this place (I guess anger really can affect your health), you just have to know when to quit for a while.

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Well, the verse clearly leave vengence to the Lord. I take that on a personal level, that I should not resort to retaliation.
I would say that's a valid interpretation of that passage. As such, isn't the death penalty a human form of retaliation?

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Taking a verse as your own is applying it in your daily life. Making Scripture personal.
There's several that I try to apply to my life, and none of them are particularly easy. Where I struggle, much of the time, is extending compassion and respect to those who do not extend it to me. This often does not refer to specific individuals, but more to groups whom I do not have a particular affinity for these days.

My particularly high standards for integrity has made me particularly disgruntled with religion, as most people here know. Seeing what seems like a faceless ignorant mob trying to ruin any of my potential for love or happiness angers me intensely. But I also know that these groups thrive on my intense hatred of them. They WANT me to despise them. But what course do I take beyond that, if my conscience cannot remotely support them? Well, that's why life is a continuing challenge. I don't claim to have all the answers.

Quote:
The New Testament brought a new convenant for salvation. It did not correct the Old Testament as Paul clearly notes in Romans 5 -7. The command of an eye for an eye (established as a limitation on punishment - the human tendancy was to want more) still stands. The is forgiveness and there are consequences. Both still exist.
Let's look at this from another angle. Back to Jesus' crucifixion, tradition has blamed the Jews for Jesus' death. However, as I've said, the Jews did not physically kill Jesus. Jesus' actual nailing to the cross and piercing of His side was done solely by the Romans--or should I say, the state. But I find it curious that the state is not blamed for Jesus' death. Pontius Pilate could have told the Jews to fuck off, and he could have sent an army of Roman soldiers to mow all of them down. It wouldn't have been the first or last time the Romans did just that.

Regardless, the blame, traditionally, was put on the Jews--or should I say, the people. I cannot ever think of a morally permissable reason ever to execute someone in this modern era. And if we do execute someone, are we ready to take responsibility for their deaths? Can we merely absolve our moral culpability for state-sponsored murder when 3/4 of America supports and actively encourages it? When you stand before God, could you look God in the eyes and justify your support for the execution of one of your fellow man, no matter how guilty this person probably was?

At the end of the day, I have to live with myself, and I can, at least, say that I never did anything to encourage the death penalty. And there was one time I was confronted with advice over an abortion. It was a friend of a friend of a friend kind of thing, so my opinion meant absolutely nothing. However, I never once gave my blessing and advised against it. Needless to say, however, I am fortunate enough to never have to deal with this issue personally.

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As to the prior post, do you agree with Hiphop's assessment that a death penalty is permissible for "tyrants"?
Why grant martyrdom to these tyrants by killing them? I often prefer the fate granted to Rudolf Hess, Hitler's deputy. He was given a life sentence, and spent the last 21 years of his life sentence completely alone, left to degenerate into madness until the ripe old age of 93. Execution would have been the easy way out for him. The fact that most Nazis either mostly committed suicide or were imprisoned is why, I believe, why groups sympathetic to the Nazi cause are fringe groups. This is in stark contrast to the 1930s when much of America was in open and blatant admiration for Hitler.

Knowing that Saddam Hussein is going to be imminently found guilty and executed (no one honestly believes this trial is going to come to any other conclusion), there should be concern that Saddam will be revered as a "martyr."

And with "Tookie" here, how many would even know his name if he had been sentenced to life in prison without parole? He would have been just another nameless prisoner left to rot. And now, even in death, he joins an illustrious list of famous executed prisoners that will never be forgotten. There will be that inevitable postmodern film that somehow inserts him into the plot, and then "Tookie" will become legendary. Again, if he had been left to rot in prison, no one would even know his name.

Melon
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Old 12-13-2005, 07:55 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy
So an opinion to support the death penalty based purely on the notion of vengence isn't a valid viewpoint?
No. For many reasons. But vengence is just riding an emotion, opinions with law can't be based purely on emotion.
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:08 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver


That is one of the most revolting things I have ever read on this forum.

Taking gladness in the death of another is low.
Revolting you say? Keeping that piece of shit alive for so long was revolting.

What about the four victims he shot at point blank range- was that revolting? Fuck him...they should have made it more painful.
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:12 PM   #248
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lol ok...I don't want to steer the thread off topic, so BonoVoxSupastar, please go look up the definition of opinion.
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:18 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy
lol ok...I don't want to steer the thread off topic, so BonoVoxSupastar, please go look up the definition of opinion.
I understand what an opinion is thank you.

But if you look back to my original it says;

Quote:
Opinions are nothing without the ability to back those opinions up with facts, or reasoning and logic.
Everyone has an opinion and they are entitled to it, but it doesn't mean it's valid in a discussion about law.

Can we continue now?
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:19 PM   #250
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Why would we allow any form of punishment if there is a possibility of an error? Isn't that just as disturbing?


why is the death penalty acceptable in some parts of the us, but nowhere else in the developed world?

why does the us execute minors when the only other countries that still do that are Iran, Yemen, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Nigeria.

what does the death penalty say about our values? what do we share with the other countries that execute minors?

it seems to me that the burden of proof is on the death penalty itself -- for it to be legal, one must demonstrate how it is a superior form of punishment and therefore must be legal and utilized, not that an argument has to be made to make it illegal.

what are the rational, good-for-society benefits -- vengence does not seem applicable here, as it's entirely emotional and only for the good of the immediate members of a victim's family -- of the death penalty? why should it be legal, rather than why should it be made illegal?
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:19 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally posted by elevateandy


Revolting you say? Keeping that piece of shit alive for so long was revolting.

What about the four victims he shot at point blank range- was that revolting? Fuck him...they should have made it more painful.
Wow your thinking is truly eleavted.
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:26 PM   #252
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Quote:
Originally posted by elevateandy

What about the four victims he shot at point blank range- was that revolting? Fuck him...they should have made it more painful.
Sure his actions were revolting.

Please don't try to insinuate that disagreeing with the death penalty is somehow condoning the brutal actions of a murderer.
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:33 PM   #253
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I am not insinuating anything?

He should have died for what he had done..and he should not have been kept alive for 20 years- they should have fried his ass after the trial.

Why give him life in prison at our expense? Why should he have food & shelter on us? It was probably a walk in the park for him.
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:33 PM   #254
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I understand what an opinion is thank you.

But if you look back to my original it says;



Everyone has an opinion and they are entitled to it, but it doesn't mean it's valid in a discussion about law.

Can we continue now?
Actually what you said was:

"Opinions are nothing without the ability to back those opinions up with facts, or reasoning and logic."

The definition of opinion is: a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty.
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:39 PM   #255
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Quote:
Originally posted by elevateandy

Why give him life in prison at our expense? Why should he have food & shelter on us? It was probably a walk in the park for him.
It's actually more expensive, much more expensive to the state for a death row inmate to exhaust the appeals process than it costs to maintain a 20 year life sentence.
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