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Old 12-13-2005, 09:19 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally posted by MsGiggles
I'm very much opposed of paying for a convicted killer's 3 meals a day and college education - not to mention they get to enjoy the nice sunny days playing basketball with their inmate pals




Quote:
Originally posted by MsGiggles

Where is the justice?
Well I guess you now have your justice. We played God and decided who should live and shouldn't. I hope everyone feels safer and better.
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:19 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
ok.

from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15108a.htm
and
http://www.davidkopel.com/Misc/Mags/Policraticus.htm
Thank you for the links. They made for some interesting reading. A couple of thoughts:

1. I'm not sure a case was made to distinguish, on a Scriptural basis, the difference between a death penalty and the killing of a tyrant. Actually, no Scripture was cited except for the references to "righteous Hebrews overthrowing tyrants" and "he who receives the sword deserves to perish by the sword." It should be noted that righteous Hebrews killed many more than just tyrants. And perishing by the sword suggests the Old Testament establishment of a death penalty (one of the few, if not the only, law mentioned in each of the five books of the Pentateuch).

2. Assuming we accept the permissibility of killing tyrants, who is the tyrant in this case? The governor was not tasked with establishing guilt or innocence, nor was he asked to select a punishment. His only role was to evaluate the case to determine if the circumstances justified commuting Tookie’s sentence. On the other side, you have a man who established one of the most violent gangs in Southern California – one that has led to countless bloodshed of gang members and innocent bystanders alike. Tookie seems far more tyrant like to me.

3. I noticed that one link was to a Catholic encyclopedia. You claim that the Governor betrayed Austrian values. Yet those Austrian values are defined by religious reference material. To what degree would you call Austria a theocracy if such values are defined by Catholic writings?
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:20 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bono's Doll
I don't know why but I cried this morning for this man. What he did was terribible but are we any better for ending his life.
Not after 24 years. I should have happened in the early 80's.
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:22 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally posted by elevateandy
The fucking media & people like Jesse Jackson are making a complete farce out of this- who gives a shit..move on

Interesting. Jesse Jackson was not there for the execution before Tookie and won't be there for the next one.
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:25 AM   #140
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Bible-schmible. Of course the Old Testament supported the death penalty, but, silly me, I thought the New Testament was to rectify the mistakes of the Old. I guess Jesus came down to Earth, met the Pharisees, and said, "Keep up the good work," while patting them on the back.

"Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.' To the contrary, 'if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.' Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." - Romans 12:19-21

But, like I said, it's not about Jesus. It's not about the Bible. We have come up with our conclusions, no matter how contradictory, ahead of time. The Bible is merely used to demonize your opponent and justify your own belief system, with the added benefit of being above questioning.

And, passages like the above? Let's just pretend they never existed like we've done for the last 2000 years.

Melon
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:28 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Not after 24 years. I should have happened in the early 80's.
There's an expiration date on vengence?
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:29 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader



Interesting. Jesse Jackson was not there for the execution before Tookie and won't be there for the next one.
Did you get ahold of his daily planner?
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:31 AM   #143
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one photo I was able to find of one of the victims, Albert Owens



He was also convicted of the earlier murder of Albert Lewis Owens, who he forced to kneel in the back room of a 7-11 and then fired a 12-guage shotgun into his back at close range, later bragging that he "blew away some white guy for $63."

if he did it, that's what he did
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:33 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Bible-schmible. Of course the Old Testament supported the death penalty, but, silly me, I thought the New Testament was to rectify the mistakes of the Old. I guess Jesus came down to Earth, met the Pharisees, and said, "Keep up the good work," while patting them on the back.

"Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.' To the contrary, 'if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.' Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." - Romans 12:19-21

But, like I said, it's not about Jesus. It's not about the Bible. We have come up with our conclusions, no matter how contradictory, ahead of time. The Bible is merely used to demonize your opponent and justify your own belief system, with the added benefit of being above questioning.

And, passages like the above? Let's just pretend they never existed like we've done for the last 2000 years.

Melon
Do you believe in a vengeful God? Do you take those verses for your own? And have you not wished others would rot in Hell? And did God really make mistakes that needed "correction"?
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:45 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Do you believe in a vengeful God?
No. A vengeful humanity created a vengeful God. A Being with infinite love, compassion and intelligence is beyond such infantile emotions.

Quote:
Do you take those verses for your own?
Not sure what you mean.

Quote:
And have you not wished others would rot in Hell?
I am human, not a god. But I do not sincerely wish hell on anyone; not even on the most despicable members of humanity.

Quote:
And did God really make mistakes that needed "correction"?
If you want to put it that way, apparently so. It was also said in the Old Testament to give an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. Jesus condemned such logic, replacing it with "Love one another." To love your enemies and to good to those who hurt you are the values of a God. It is what makes living a Christ-like lifestyle so damn difficult, and I'm disappointed that His loudest followers seemingly miss the mark the most of them all.

Melon
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:55 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
No. A vengeful humanity created a vengeful God. A Being with infinite love, compassion and intelligence is beyond such infantile emotions.
Well, the verse clearly leave vengence to the Lord. I take that on a personal level, that I should not resort to retaliation.



Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Not sure what you mean.
Taking a verse as your own is applying it in your daily life. Making Scripture personal.



Quote:
Originally posted by melon
If you want to put it that way, apparently so. It was also said in the Old Testament to give an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. Jesus condemned such logic, replacing it with "Love one another." To love your enemies and to good to those who hurt you are the values of a God. It is what makes living a Christ-like lifestyle so damn difficult, and I'm disappointed that His loudest followers seemingly miss the mark the most of them all.

Melon
The New Testament brought a new convenant for salvation. It did not correct the Old Testament as Paul clearly notes in Romans 5 -7. The command of an eye for an eye (established as a limitation on punishment - the human tendancy was to want more) still stands. The is forgiveness and there are consequences. Both still exist.


As to the prior post, do you agree with Hiphop's assessment that a death penalty is permissible for "tyrants"?
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:55 AM   #147
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Melon seems to have a problem when somebody has a different opinion as him - I notice this in most threads - I can't understand why we CAN'T respect other's opinions rather than belittling those who may not feel the same as you
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Old 12-13-2005, 10:01 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally posted by MsGiggles
Melon seems to have a problem when somebody has a different opinion as him - I notice this in most threads - I can't understand why we CAN'T respect other's opinions rather than belittling those who may not feel the same as you
Did I ever say you couldn't have a differing opinion? Please tell me where I said that, providing the appropriate link.

I have an M.A. in media, which also deals with a large dose of philosophy and logic. As such, I enjoy ripping through what I consider to be faulty logic.

If prison was such a paradise, as you believe, then why don't we all aspire to go there? If it's such the paradise, as you have said, why don't you want to go there? That's because it's an utterly meaningless statement.

I'm sorry if you don't like me challenging what you've written. But I would say that the status quo has failed big time, and any even remote potential for change requires questioning everything--particularly conventional logic. Whether any of these challenges of mine actually result in change? I don't know. But God forbid I try.

I have to work, so I'm off for a little while. Rest assured, I'll be back.

Melon
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Old 12-13-2005, 10:18 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by MsGiggles
I'm very much opposed of paying for a convicted killer's 3 meals a day and college education - not to mention they get to enjoy the nice sunny days playing basketball with their inmate pals

Where is the justice?
Question - are you more opposed to the cost of feeding and housing a prisoner for life than you are to placing them on death row, and incurring the even greater costs of seeing them through the appellate process before they are finally executed?
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Old 12-13-2005, 10:22 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by VintagePunk


Question - are you more opposed to the cost of feeding and housing a prisoner for life than you are to placing them on death row, and incurring the even greater costs of seeing them through the appellate process before they are finally executed?
does it matter to you either way what I think?
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