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Old 10-30-2001, 10:29 PM   #31
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Laura:

1. My assumption is that God is the Creator. It doesn't necessarily follow that God is therefore omnipotent, but it stands to reason that He who created all this probably AT LEAST has also the power to destroy all this. Between those two powers alone, He's power is immense.

(The reason I assume this is that it makes no sense to me that God exists but He didn't create the universe -- that somebody else created the universe, or that the universe came into being on its own.)

2. That "God is love" may be quite important in terms of our fates is obvious. But I don't think His love is the most important quality to His "God-ness"; I can imagine a powerful but cruel God a lot more readily than an all-loving God with limited power. He's great first, good second.

4. I'm not sure anyone can answer why God created us, but I'm inclined to agree with C.S. Lewis, in that, in all His power, He was still a more-or-less singular being before He created the universe. The physical universe gave Him "room" to create a whole multitude of "sons", namely, man.

5. And, of course, it's only a guess, but such a seemingly chaotic universe may be necessary to disassociate actions from just consequences -- to allow for the free will needed for man to choose God.

I am (if it isn't obvious) a Christian, and one of our most beloved descriptions of God, particularly Christ, is "Savior and Lord". He would not have chosen to save us were it not for His love for us, but He would have been unable to save us if not for His power -- His Lordship over not only our hearts, but this universe, and everything beyond it.

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Old 10-30-2001, 10:54 PM   #32
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I think God's definitive quality is Grace...

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Old 10-31-2001, 10:57 PM   #33
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I think God's most important quality in terms of our relationship with Him is His love -- grace.

But I think His power is what most makes Him God. Without His love, He would be a cruel God indeed, but I think he would still be God. Hence, its not the most "necessary" quality.

Either way, the point is ultimately moot, particualarly if one believes (as I do) that God is infinitely great and good, all-powerful and all-loving.

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Old 10-31-2001, 11:23 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by rougerum:
I think you foray and 80s should have a much better time replying to the next portion of the Kubrick/Playboy interview in which he speaks on aliens directly.

~rougerum
Well then, before I respond to you on this one, where is the next portion? that you are about to post... when?

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Old 10-31-2001, 11:41 PM   #35
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Well i will post the next portion when this one dies but let me say I find your theory of aliens being demons completely ridiculous and with out any proof what so ever to back it up.

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Old 11-02-2001, 12:28 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by rougerum:
Bubba,

It is one thing to disagree with him, it is another thing to attack him by saying he is talking out of his ass... and like Laura said, other religions have different views on this so instead of attacking him next time for believing this, just disagree with and respect his opinion as I do with all other people.

~rougerum
At the risk of sounding uptight, aren't you doing to me what you didn't want Bubba to do to Kubrick in this thread?

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Old 11-02-2001, 08:31 AM   #37
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You don't have anything credible to back your theory up, I do and Bubba dismissed it as I didn't when I did. So with that in mind I think I have the right to identify your theory as what I think it is, ridiculous. Give me information to back it up and I might change my mind. Until you do, it will get no respect.

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Old 11-02-2001, 10:01 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by rougerum:
You don't have anything credible to back your theory up, I do and Bubba dismissed it as I didn't when I did. So with that in mind I think I have the right to identify your theory as what I think it is, ridiculous. Give me information to back it up and I might change my mind. Until you do, it will get no respect.
~rougerum
There's nothing to back up anyone's theories on aliens. I have come to my conclusion about aliens being demons based on the way I know that the devil operates. The Bible calls him "an angel of light". That means he has the power to appear as something good, to fool people. The Bible also says that Satan is the author of all false doctrine and all lies. Satan's demons are very active in this world and pull their tricks and evil deeds in many different ways, form outright possession to oppression and simple manipulation. One reason that I believe that aliens are "demons in disguise" is because the Bible tells of the "Rapture", in which Christians will be taken up to be with the Lord. Now, whether this happens after or before the Tribulation is a raging argument, but it is going to happen at some time, according to teh Bible. Now, when all the Christians suddenly disappear, how will their absence be explained to the public? Alien abduction is my opinion. It fits perfectly. Anyway, I've got a good lot of quotes from people who feel the way I do, but I'll have to post those later. Now I've gotta jump start someone's car.
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Old 11-02-2001, 10:30 AM   #39
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Ok Laura I posted you happy now LMAO *goes back to PLEBA*

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Old 11-02-2001, 11:32 AM   #40
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Kubrick was an interesting man indeed, but I think his religious theories hold as much serious credence as L. Ron Hubbard's theories: none. I still, however, admire him.

Regardless, now there is all this discussion of aliens and ghosts and their relation to demons. My take on ghosts is that they are restless spirits, but not necessarily evil. I would equate their state closest to the Catholic idea of purgatory--not in union with God yet, but not hellbound. As for aliens being "demons," it's laughable at best, especially since the verdict isn't even out as to whether they actually exist! Also, I don't see why it would be incomprehensible that life outside of Earth would exist, created in the same God-created evolutionary process that created us. Of course, I'm sure that they would have their religious as well that would call us "demons" as well.

And Genesis? It's not the source of truth, really. It's probably one of the most interesting books in that it's also polytheistic, but that "the other gods" were bad gods defending the other tribal cultures. Why else would you think that Exodus and the first commandment was so important that it had to be mentioned? It's a book of early Jewish myth and superstition really--angry gods, angels, demons--the same by-product of the superstition of the Dark Ages.

"Nephilim" don't exist, and neither do "witches." Just in the same way that there is no evidence of a "world-wide flood," but, considering the context, it might be the story of when the Mediterranean Sea breached an area, resulting in a massive flood that created the Black Sea 7000 years ago. Considering that Noah landed on "Mount Ararat" in Turkey, this would make sense in that context, and, considering the magnitude of the flood that created the Black Sea (probably still the most dramatic example of a flood in history), it's no wonder they thought the entire world was swallowed in water!

If Genesis had been written by anyone else--Sumerians, Celts, etc.--we would dismiss it as myth. Why are, somehow, the ancient Jewish cultures immune from myth? This does not negate my belief in God at all--in fact, the Old Testament idea of an angry and vengeful God is contrary to the New Testament idea of a loving God anyway. Trying to justify demons out of Genesis is like trying to justify aliens out of Kubrick's texts: it's both silly.

And as for Satan as the "author of all false doctrine and all lies," he's done a great trip on Christians of the last few centuries, making everyone lose sight of the real Truth in God--love--while having them grasp to an essentialist and petty view of Him, as presented in "Nephilim," raptures, Adam and Eve, etc. Since when does any of this have to do with faith and love? You cannot be "tricked" into Satan. Both Judaism and Christianity brought in the idea that, in order to "break the law," one must consciously choose to break it! Even so, Satan does make a presence on the world, but who is to say it's so black-and-white? If Satan were on this earth, what would he be to be the most evil? Well, if he was making his presence on Earth thousands of years ago, the most evil presence he could take on is one of a Biblical writer (notice "a" writer, not all of them). If he was making his presence on Earth today, it would be one of a Christian evangelist (same "a"). Yes, Satan has done a great job diverting "Christians" away from the Truth about God. And, no, I obviously cannot prove this anymore than Kubrick can prove his claims, but I think that Satan's evil is now intermingled within Christianity itself, and, considering how diverse Christianity is and how hateful much of the Bible is, it wouldn't be very hard to lead others astray.

Like a minister's son once told me in justifying the death penalty, it's "an eye for an eye." Now if that isn't a false doctrine and lie, then what is?

BTW, in apparition fare, there are no raptures discussed. However, it also states that true Christians should not worry about "the end," as, even if they die within the troubles, Heaven still applies. I've always found it funny that Pharisees expected a warrior-conqueror for the first coming of Jesus and now many Christians expect a warrior-conqueror for His second coming. I think that when Jesus comes again, He will be rejected by the people He came to save, just as the Pharisees rejected Him the first time around. Or maybe things will be more clear cut the second time around. I guess we won't know unless we live through it.

Melon

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Old 11-02-2001, 12:46 PM   #41
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Melon, you say that you believe in the "New Testament" God, but not the "old Testament" God...is that how I am to interpret your last post? if so, then you may not know your New testament as well as you think, because the New Testament does indeed speak of the rapture, demons and the "tricks" of the devil.

The New Testament also PLAINLY tells that the second coming will be one of glory, not one in which Christ will be rejected again. There is absolutely no Biblical evidence whatsoever that backs up your assertion that Christ will be rejected in the second coming.

Here are some verse for you:

On Demons and the "tricks of the devil": These verses show how Satan tricks and uses people and prevents them form doing the right things:

Matt 4:24, Matt 9:32, 2 Tim 2:26, James 2:19, Rev. 12:9, Luke 22:3, Acts 5:3, 2 Thess 2:18, 2 Corinthians 11: 12-15, in which Satan's ability to disguise himself and his minions as "angels of light" is discussed. 2 Thess 1-12 tells that Satan is at working "tricking" and "deceiving" people.

Yes, we choose to do the wrong thing, and it is certainly our responsibility. But for the Christian to sin is against his new nature (the nature of Christ), and commits sin when he buys into the lies Satan whispers in his ears.

There are many others, melon.

As for the rapture: 1 Thess 4:14-17

Melon, quite frankly, you are so angry toward Christianity, it would be laughable if it weren't so serious a topic. You say you only hate "Fundamental Christianity", but I don't really believe that, because you are always seeking to discount things that are plainly found in the Bible. Your hatred of Christianity is apparent in almost everything you write. You speak of Jesus' exhortations to love, but you don't show that love to those Christians who disagree with you about Christianity.
You know Melon, I don't agree with Islam, but I don't speak ill of Muslims or even ill about the faith. I think homosexuality is wrong, but you don't see me trashing you or any of the other people who think homosexuality is okay. You say you stand for tolerance , but you don't live it. You don't tolerate Christians, unless they fit in your little box, your idea of what Christians should believe.
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Old 11-02-2001, 01:46 PM   #42
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I do have every right to criticize Christianity, because I am Christian myself. The Pharisees had their "Biblical assertions" as well regarding the Messiah, and they rejected Jesus on Biblical basis. How am I to believe, considering how the faith of the Pharisee is quite similar to the faith of the fundamentalist regarding the Bible, that things won't be any different?

But let's actually look at the Bible passages:

Matt 4:24 "His fame spread to all of Syria, and they brought to him all who were sick with various diseases and racked with pain, those who were possessed, lunatics, and paralytics, and he cured them."

I hope you know that this says nothing about "demons." They had limited knowledge of science and mental health, so it's a likely reality that the "possessed" were schizophrenic or something else.

Matt 9:32-33 "As they were going out, a demoniac who could not speak was brought to him, and when the demon was driven out the mute person spoke. The crowds were amazed and said, 'Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel.'"

It's funny. And people used to laugh at images of Catholic exorcism rituals?

This came from my sophomore year religion teacher, but, in regards to the miracles, she brought in the concept of hyperbole regarding them; that Jesus did, in fact, do some miracles, but that the gospel writers often boasted them or added details to make them easier for people to believe.

2 Tom 2:24-26 "A slave of the Lord should not quarrel, but should be gentle with everyone, able to teach, tolerant, correcting opponents with kindness. It may be that God will grant them repentance that leads to knowledge of the truth, and that they may return to their senses out of the devil's snare, where they are entrapped by him, for his will."

This, again, has nothing to do with demons, but of St. Paul's opinion on who is in the "devil's snare." St. Paul, a complete Christian stoic, would likely have included all sense of physical pleasure and emotion in the "devil's snare." But I do like the first line (2 Tim 2:24). It's what I try to do in regards to my religious writings, which, most surely, are not intended to be the gospel truth. Of course, like St. Paul, I sometimes fall short and sound arrogant. It's not my intention.

James 2:19 "You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble."

I think it's really funny you brought up this passage of all passages. James 2:18-20 is the Catholic justification for faith and good works for salvation. Let's put in the entire passage:

James 2:18-20 "Indeed someone might say, 'You have faith and I have works.' Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?"

This is in contrast to the Pauline view of salvation, which was faith only. The New Testament contradicts itself, due to the fact that it is the result of the two original factions of Christianity.

In fact, I think this only strengthened my point, which was that Christianity and Christians are not bad, as a whole, but that Satan finds his way into anything regarding humanity, even the Bible, even religion, even those who "preach" the Lord. Hence why I believe the Bible must be read critically and cautiously.

Rev 12:9 "The huge dragon, the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, who deceived the whole world, was thrown down to earth, and its angels were thrown down with it."

Excellent. I never denied the existence of Satan, and, once again, is compatible with what I wrote.

Luke 22:3 "Then Satan entered into Judas, the one surnamed Iscariot, who was counted among the Twelve, and he went to the chief priests and temple guards to discuss a plan for handing him over to them."

I really doubt that Judas was possessed. It's another example of temptation and sin. Plus, this is a very black-and-white example of evil. What I wrote was regarding the hidden evils; that Satan's greatest evil would likely take the face of a "fellow Christian" and use this faith to promote evil and hatred, which is very simple, considering the Old Testament is one gigantic cauldron of hatred, not to mention the Pauline epistles. I find it only interesting how many Christians are ignorant of Romans 13:8-10, but sure know the Sodom and Gomorrah passage by heart. That, to me, is the deception of Satan, disguising himself in goodness, only to divert one away from the true message of the Bible. That is why I cannot, in any capacity, accept fundamentalism.

Acts 5:3 "But Peter said, 'Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart so that you lied to the holy Spirit and retained part of the price of the land?'"

See above for the same explanation. Another clear-cut example.

Hmm...there is no 2 Thess 2:18...the chapter stops at 2:17. But the entire chapter is another general and ambiguous discussion of evil, not incompatible with what I wrote.

2 Cor 11:12-15 "And what I do I will continue to do, in order to end this pretext of those who seek a pretext for being regarded as we are in the mission of which they boast. For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, who masquerade as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light. So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds."

Why thank you for this passage. You've completely justified the point I tried to make Biblically. "Satan masquerades as an angel of light. So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness." St. Paul put it far more eloquently and concisely than I did.

As for "the rapture," I believe it, but not in the literal sense. I've seen a Calvinist video, where they think that people will suddenly disappear out of thin air. And perhaps this will be. Like I've said, there's no way I can prove any of this, but, quite honestly, it's quite the comforting passage. Only interesting that the video used the Rapture to state that only those of their specific sect would be saved, while everyone else would be destroyed. I guess, as I've thought it out, it's not the Biblical concept that has angered me, but the revisionist "Christian" interpretations.

As for my "little box," it's only ironic again. What I advocate is, simply, for a simplistic and open faith, little more than Romans 13:8-10 to be fulfilled. As I see it, most of Christianity is still clinging to centuries-old tradition racked with guilt with images of an angry and vengeful God, whether consciously or not. And, in my quest for the actuality of infinite love and compassion, I'm labelled intolerant. How curious indeed.

Melon

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Old 11-02-2001, 05:26 PM   #43
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Melon,

You forget that Kubrick makes no mentions nothing of the gods he talks about being religious, he keeps them in the frame of being scientific gods. Kubrick was asked in another review if he was religious and he basically no, not at all and just moved on with the next question. I think what Kubrick does here is not at all go into talk of the god that created it all or anything but the possibilities of the oldest and supreme aliens, just that their intelligence and capabilities would seem like they are gods to us. Kubrick is not giving any answers here, he is just bringing out possibilities and as he quoted the last saying of a prominent astronomer when he said something along the lines of, "Sometimes I think we are alone, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the idea is quite staggering." I think that is what Kubrick feels about these god like aliens, that the idea they exist are staggering to him and he just has a curious ear to the subject at hand instead of trying to give the answers.

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Old 11-02-2001, 06:11 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by rougerum:
Melon,

You forget that Kubrick makes no mentions nothing of the gods he talks about being religious, he keeps them in the frame of being scientific gods. Kubrick was asked in another review if he was religious and he basically no, not at all and just moved on with the next question. I think what Kubrick does here is not at all go into talk of the god that created it all or anything but the possibilities of the oldest and supreme aliens, just that their intelligence and capabilities would seem like they are gods to us. Kubrick is not giving any answers here, he is just bringing out possibilities and as he quoted the last saying of a prominent astronomer when he said something along the lines of, "Sometimes I think we are alone, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the idea is quite staggering." I think that is what Kubrick feels about these god like aliens, that the idea they exist are staggering to him and he just has a curious ear to the subject at hand instead of trying to give the answers.
Oh I agree that that is the sentiment he is trying to make, and I think it is a very interesting article there. I do think, perhaps, people have gone completely on the defensive on this, and I found myself arguing more with the responses than with the article itself, even though, religiously, I don't believe what Kubrick stated.

For what it's worth, the idea that aliens created us is not a new proposition with Kubrick. One of the pair that first mapped DNA and it's structure in the 1950s believed that all life on Earth came from an alien source, if only because he could not see how life could have come together using conditions on Earth.

That "alien source" hypothesis, obviously, could never be tested, but, personally, if it was overwhelmingly found that all life on Earth was directly created from aliens, it really wouldn't shake my faith in God; I would then say that God was still indirectly involved, as He would have created the aliens or somewhere down the line. I'm quite happy that my religion can reconcile scientific progress or whatnot with faith.

In a way, however, I find it odd how humanity obsesses over how it was created. Aside from a curiousity standpoint, does it really matter? Something to ponder.

Melon

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Old 11-03-2001, 12:18 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by rougerum:
You don't have anything credible to back your theory up, I do and Bubba dismissed it as I didn't when I did. So with that in mind I think I have the right to identify your theory as what I think it is, ridiculous. Give me information to back it up and I might change my mind. Until you do, it will get no respect.

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As you may have noticed, I am often reluctant to come back to this thread or comment further. This is simply because I feel very insulted everytime you post back, especially with your arrogant and condescending tone. I think I do have a point that you're having double standards with regards to courtesy. I actually thought Bubba's rebuttal to Kubrick was very comprehensive. Your rebuttal to mine, however, was just a simple "kubrick's theory is 10 mil times better than yours" without telling me how it is better than mine, considering both theories are developed out of reason. But enough about your attitude; I still consider you my friend, I even pray for you sometimes, not like it matters to you. On to the argument itself.

I already realised earlier on that it would be a very difficult discussion to have with you since you don't even believe in the Bible or God, therefore even 80su2isbest's explanation (There's nothing to back up anyone's theories on aliens. I have come to my conclusion about aliens being demons based on the way I know that the devil operates. The Bible calls him "an angel of light" etc...) is declared null and void.

That is why in order to settle the argument, this discussion should turn into a "Does God exist?" and "Is the Bible true?" discussion, so as to start on the same platform. Are you willing to go into that?


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[This message has been edited by foray (edited 11-02-2001).]
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