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Old 10-14-2007, 03:43 PM   #91
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Originally posted by INDY500
Now this debate started decades before any country sanctioned same-sex marriage. It isn't "Gays are ruining everything" it's "are all forms of relationships equal?" and "should society promote any above the others?"

I think that's a debate worth having. Those in the "Just let people live their lives any way they damn well please and keep your nose out of their business" don't.
And what if the answer to this "debate" was to have gay marriage and to abolish straight marriage?

That's the thing. You're happy to have a debate, where the ultimate conclusion, one way or another, doesn't affect you in the slightest.

The other thing is that this "debate" has already been played out before. I get the sense, though, that you won't let this debate close unless it is exactly the answer you want.

You don't have to ban gay marriage to have programs to support or strengthen marriage. That's the problem with all of this. Conservatives are so drunk with hatred of homosexuals that they are flat out neglecting the things that they can change!

Canadian religious conservatives, understanding that they do not have public or political support for eliminating gay marriage, recently had a conference on how to strengthen marriages in Canada...and had few to no mentions of gay marriage at all. What a novel concept! It's too bad that American religious conservatives are too narrow-minded to do the same. Strengthening marriages and legalized gay marriage can--God forbid--exist simultaneously!
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Old 10-14-2007, 03:51 PM   #92
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Originally posted by INDY500

Wow!! I thought that was pretty clear. Haven't you mentioned that you're a school teacher?
Proudly, and if any one of my students attempted the infuckingsane leaps you attempt, I'd fail them on that particular paper.

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Just quoting Dutch advocates of same-sex marriage. Why don't you ask them for clarification.
Because you're the guy who used the quote to back your bigoted bullshit.
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Old 10-14-2007, 03:59 PM   #93
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Any third grader who knows how to read a graph could see the curve was heading that direction without that factor...

FreeRepublic, that's so sweet that conservatives would think that would be considered a legitimate source.
You idiot, don't you understand that really means that out of wedlock births cause gay marriage, so if we want to protect the sanctity of marriage then pregnant women must be married off ASAP. The only way to stop gay sinfulness is to stop all sinfulness, equally.
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Old 10-14-2007, 04:01 PM   #94
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
out of wedlock births cause gay marriage
You, sir, are onto something there!

That must be it! There's no other way to link them that makes any sense, so that's got to be it!
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Old 10-14-2007, 04:12 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

Now this debate started decades before any country sanctioned same-sex marriage. It isn't "Gays are ruining everything" it's "are all forms of relationships equal?" and "should society promote any above the others?"

I think that's a debate worth having. Those in the "Just let people live their lives any way they damn well please and keep your nose out of their business" crowd don't.

On what grounds? Personal responsibility is out. Morality is out.
Remember it's "Just let people live their lives any way they damn well please and keep your nose out of their business."
Now what you have here is the epitome of a statist, there is an issue which your gut tells you is wrong, namely gays getting married, and it must be stopped. And they won't listen to the pleas to make them stop so state force has to be used. Governmental obfuscation of liberty is the same all over the world, and it is generally wrong.

Your not taking a stand for personal responsibility at all, you want to use the state to enforce your morality thus robbing individuals the freedom to do the right thing.

Freedom of choice includes the choice to do the right thing, a monogamous relationship straight or gay is generally thought to be the right thing, if you want to obfuscate the freedom to marry, then you are preventing gays from doing the right thing.

It keeps coming down to it across so many of these hot button issues like the gays, prayer in school, flag burning etc. where people take their gut feeling and want to use it as an excuse to crush others liberties. There is no freedom from being offended.
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Old 10-14-2007, 06:07 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer

Your not taking a stand for personal responsibility at all, you want to use the state to enforce your morality thus robbing individuals the freedom to do the right thing.

There's no need for logic in here...
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Old 10-14-2007, 07:05 PM   #97
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I don't know why people keep pointing to statistics that have to do with marriage(of any kind) here. I think, in this particular debate, that word - "marriage" - is harped on too much. Conservatives want to make this a debate about marriage and relationships, but I think it's really a debate about equality.

The reason it is so offensive to gay people when they are told that they can't get married is not just that it prevents them from being able to tie the knot, it's because it sends the message loud and clear that they are somehow lesser people than straight people, and that they somehow deserve lesser liberties than straight people. This sentiment is, of course, bullshit.

So, instead of posting statistics about marriage and out-of-wed births and this sort of thing, I think the anti-gay-marriage crowd should just put all that crap aside and ask themselves one question: "Why do I act as though a gay person is a lesser person than I?".

And when you can't answer that question with any kind of validity, perhaps you'll see the light. There is absolutely no reason to treat them differently just because their sexual orientation is different. In the end, that's the point of this. A straight couple might want to get married, or they might want to stay together without getting married. But they have the choice. And that's all the gay community wants: the choice. The equality.
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Old 10-14-2007, 07:16 PM   #98
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all this debate over marriage. and how many of us walk the talk we give??? how many are REALLY going to vote for the candidate who DOES believe that all are equal and believes that love defines marriage and will create legislation in support of that? how many are REALLY going to vote for a candidate that is pro-gay marriage?
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Old 10-14-2007, 07:30 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

that marriage is not about parenthood and they just might begin to believe you.



how hard is this?

marriage does not equal parenthood. many straight people are married and have no children. many are unmarried and have children. some cohabitate, some are single. marriage is incidental to parenthood. many gay people would get married and have children, many would not.

one has nothing to do with the other, necessarily. it can be agreed that a marriage can enhance one's parental abilities, but one does not need to exist for the sake of the other.




[q]Make household diversity and relationship equality a rallying cry, remove societal supports, and people might decide that all forms of relationship are equal -- especially young people, of family-forming age, most of whom have left religion behind. *[/q]

so what you are saying is that a gay relationship is less worthy than a straight one.

if you'd just come out and say that, then we might have time.

what you don't get is that gay people don't want to change anything. they just want to be let into the club.




[q]Now this debate started decades before any country sanctioned same-sex marriage. It isn't "Gays are ruining everything" it's "are all forms of relationships equal?" and "should society promote any above the others?"[/q]

please, please, please tell me: how is a straight relationship better than a gay one? please, please, please tell me why you would defend Britney's right to marry anyone, anywhere, for however long she wants, and then turn around and tell me that my relationshpis, always, at all times, are worse than hers.

you are valuing form over content. and this is what comes up -- for when you say that one "form" is by definition superior, you ignore content.



Quote:
On what grounds? Personal responsibility is out. Morality is out.
Remember it's "Just let people live their lives any way they damn well please and keep your nose out of their business."

well, i'm sad. i guess i really have failed at trying to flesh my life and relationship out. i've shared so much on this board, i've talked about very, very personal things, and all in order to try and get you to see, INDY, that i am no different from you. yes, i love men in the way that you love women, but other than that, i'm not asking for anything else other than to be treated as your equal. i'm not choosing to live my life any damn way i please. THERE IS NO CHOICE HERE. i'm not choosing shit. the only thing i'm choosing is not to live a life of loneliness and misery. i am choosing to stand up to you and say, yes, i am a worthy person, and my life and loves and relationships are equal to yours in form. i am not asking you to look the other way while i cheat, or abuse my partner, or babysit my kids with the TV, or let my 13 year old smoke pot in the basement, or whatever other fantasies conservatives harbor about how liberals live their lives. all i am asking for is to be treated in exactly the same way you would be treated.

you have absolutely whatsoever no logical argument unless you are going to stand up and say the following two things:

1. Straight relationships are always, and in all ways, preferable to gay relationships, so therefore we have a vested social interest in promoting one and discouraging the other, and it is so important that we need to deny people rights in order to do so

2. Gay people have made a conscious, aware choice to be gay; if they wanted to, they could marry people of the opposite sex, but they choose not to, so therefore, since this option is technically open for them, and since their minority sexual orientation is a chosen action, we don't have to provide any "in" for them into this club, because it already exists.

if you'd just say that, then i wouldn't get so depressed when you post about this subject.
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Old 10-14-2007, 07:48 PM   #100
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I'm straight.


I hope to get married some day.



I never want kids. I'm just not the motherly type There are probably a lot more gay men and women out there who would enjoy being parents much more than myself, and they should be allowed to have that opportunity.

A good parent is a good parent regardless of race, sex, or orientation.
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Old 10-14-2007, 08:16 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2democrat
I'm straight.


I hope to get married some day.



I never want kids.
Then you are part of the problem...

Married people should procreate.


















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Old 10-14-2007, 08:33 PM   #102
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It's certainly the bad influence of melon and Irvine.
Because, it's impossible for a woman to not wanting to get married and become a mother.
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Old 10-14-2007, 08:41 PM   #103
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Old 10-14-2007, 10:35 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2democrat
I'm straight.


I hope to get married some day.



I never want kids.


i'm gay.



i hope to get married.



i probably want kids.







is it so hard to see the inherent discrimination here? i'm willing to take all of the "sanctions" and "promotions" that society offers the institution of marriage and put it towards raising good, healthy kids. U2dem is not. yet, who gets to get married and the 1,049 tax breaks, power of attorney, and who doesn't?

the opening of marriage to include gay people in NO WAY changes the institution. two gay people who get married are no different from two infertible striaght people or two straights who choose not to have children. there is no difference.

until someone can demonstrate to me that a childless gay couple is somehow less worthy of marriage than a childless straight couple, there is NO ARGUMENT to be had against gay marriage. or, likewise, a post-menopausal woman getting married.

i can agree that there should be some sort of privileged status to two people who wish to commit to each other for life and choose to bring children into the world through their union. that's fine to me. but we've already allowed people who have no intention of children to enter into this supposedly "privileged" relationship -- proving that, yes, i guess all forms of STRAIGHT relationships really are equal -- so i'm wondering how we can bar gay people from this.

please, someone address this.

another example which i'd love for INDY to tackle.

i recently became aware that an aquaintance of mine (very good friend of a good friend) is actually a Female-to-Male transgendered individual. he has a female fiance. he also has a vagina, but is legally a man. looks like a man, acts like a man, has a goatee, you'd never know unless he told you. but he has a vagina. and he's allowed to get married, but Memphis and i are not.

explain that.
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Old 10-14-2007, 10:46 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



explain that.



Life is confusing and not fair.

However, we should try and make it less confusing and more fair.
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