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Old 10-14-2007, 11:03 AM   #76
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel

Just let people live their lives any way they damn well please and keep your nose out of their business. WHAT is so hard to understand about that concept?

Angela

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Old 10-14-2007, 02:21 PM   #77
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
Nicely said, everybody, in response to INDY . And along with what melon listed for reasons as to why marriage among straight people is decreasing


Melon said, Melon said. Guess what, Melon didn't say ANYTHING that wasn't acknowledged or mentioned in the article or myself on my 2nd post discussing the article on the post.

Melon: Looking at that curve, even prior to that first court case in 1989, shows an increase in out-of-wedlock childbirth.
Kurtz: In the mid-1990s, out-of-wedlock births, already rising, began a steeper increase

Melon: Could it be the end result of the fact that Europe has steadily and increasingly rejected Christianity for over 200 years, and, as such, has little use for its institutions?
Kurtz: No Western society has secularized more radically or rapidly than Holland. The Netherlands changed from one of the most religious countries in Europe to one of the most secular. Today, nearly three-quarters of the Dutch under 35 claim no religious affiliation.

Melon: Could it be the result of the decades after the 1960s counterculture movement, where heterosexuals have increasingly decided that marriage isn't needed for love?
Kurtz: The cultural revolution of the 1960s weakened the churches. Once faith became too fragile to sustain the social order, the pillars collapsed.... Even as premarital cohabitation became nearly universal, and as cohabitation acquired virtually equal status with marriage under Dutch law in the 1980s
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

And, if we're all on the same page about marriage rates and out- of-wedlock births rising before same-sex marriage, why can't we "monitor" those rates afterwards given these kind of statements from same-sex advocates, also from the article?

Quote:
During the 2000 parliamentary debates, Green party spokesman Femke Halsema said it was only when considered superficially that the drive for same-sex marriage appeared to contradict the feminist quest for the abolition of marriage. In reality, said Halsema, conservative opponents were largely right to claim that gay marriage would be tantamount to the abolition of marriage--which was exactly why gay marriage was a good thing.

Dutch lesbian intellectual Xandra Schutte argued in De Groene Amsterdammer (The Green Amsterdammer) that providing gay marriage as one of a menu of relationship options was the equivalent of the abolition of marriage.
Now, the American debate is more centered on equality and stability, but is it really bigoted nonsense to even consider the question of the long term effects of same-sex marriage on society? After all, I thought we all approved science, even if it's only social science.


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Just let people live their lives any way they damn well please and keep your nose out of their business. WHAT is so hard to understand about that concept?
Angela
Put same-sex marriage aside for a moment, this was also the argument in the 90's about single-family households and "Murphy Brown." Well, we have a little better statistics about that and guess what? It isn't pretty. Higher rates of dropout, drug use, teen pregnancy and crime.

So how is Mike Huckabee or myself wrong when we say "marriage does matter, I would add that nothing in our society matters more. Our true strength doesn't come from our military or our gross national product, it comes from our families."?
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Old 10-14-2007, 02:23 PM   #78
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So, the homos are responsible for illegitimate births among heteros?

And homos who want to marry ...will be responsible for fewer marrriages?


Is that really what you're saying? If so, did you pull a muscle arriving at these conclusions?
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Old 10-14-2007, 02:27 PM   #79
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But you can make statistics about an entire country say almost anything when you only look at one factor. There's so many factors involved in that statistic, which is why it is total bullshit to suggest that homosexuality could have been a cause. Yes, it COULD have, but it's no more likely than any other factor.
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Old 10-14-2007, 02:32 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
Melon said, Melon said. Guess what, Melon didn't say ANYTHING that wasn't acknowledged or mentioned in the article or myself on my 2nd post discussing the article on the post.
Get real. You know what this article reads like? A Hamas television program on Judaism. You know, Hamas says that "the Jews" murder and drink the blood of Muslim babies and children. So if Hamas, a group that hates Jews, says it, it must be true.

This article reads according to similar logic. That is, identifying "a problem" and grasping for straws to scapegoat someone you already hate. If this article is so reputable and well-researched, then why is it only published from a source that already has a predetermined hatred of homosexuals?

Fuck. I don't know why I even waste my time on this bigoted filth. Maybe it's only because I'm trying to prevent anyone else from innocently buying this bullshit. One thing is for sure; American education has certainly gone down the crapper for people to mindlessly believe this nonsense.

At least I can now understand why groups like the KKK existed for as long as it did. And just as it took decades to rid this nation of racist crap, it will take decades of work to eliminate this homophobic nonsense.
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Old 10-14-2007, 02:33 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


And, if we're all on the same page about marriage rates and out- of-wedlock births rising before same-sex marriage, why can't we "monitor" those rates afterwards given these kind of statements from same-sex advocates, also from the article?



you do see the hilarious irony, though, don't you?

guess who's never, ever going to have a single out-of-wedlock childbirth?

gay people.

so let the gay people get married so they can form stable unions and then go about adopting the children that you irresponsible straight people keep shitting out onto the street, just stop blaming us for your shortcomings.

you realize, too, that blaming gay people for things that are 100% straight is really no different than the scapegoating of the Jews.



[q]Now, the American debate is more centered on equality and stability, but is it really bigoted nonsense to even consider the question of the long term effects of same-sex marriage on society? After all, I thought we all approved science, even if it's only social science.[/q]

do you realize the leap you're making when you're blaming the decline of striaght marriages on the rise of gay marriage? you realize that one has NOTHING to do with one another? these are very, very basic Psychology 101 mistakes you're making. the *only* correlation that might be made is when civil unions become an option #2, and open to everyone. then, you might see straights entering into relationships that have been definitionally created as "separate but equal" and, due to your need to kick gay people, they aren't as strong as marriage. however, this is another straight issue that you're foisting on gay people. and thusly, the only way to solve it, is to remove discrimination from marriage and have it open to consenting adult partners, gay or straight.




Quote:
So how is Mike Huckabee or myself wrong when we say "marriage does matter, I would add that nothing in our society matters more. Our true strength doesn't come from our military or our gross national product, it comes from our families."?
so you "make marriage matter" by kicking gay people out? by providing straight people scapegoats? by saying, "no, it's not your fault you got married after you got pregnant by 19 and now you're 26 and you hate each other; it's those terrible gays who want to get married, that's why you want a divorce."

i'm all for straights getting all the help they apparently need, i just don't want to be your scapegoat.

if you're so concerned with the decline of heteorsexual marriage, then lets push legislation that have prohibitions on divorce, birth control, adultery, and female employment.

deal with your own shit, don't put it on me. i haven't done anything except ask to be treated like a citizen of the United States.
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Old 10-14-2007, 02:38 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha
So, the homos are responsible for illegitimate births among heteros?

"Put same-sex marriage aside for a moment, this was also the argument in the 90's about single-family households and Murphy Brown."
Wow!! I thought that was pretty clear. Haven't you mentioned that you're a school teacher?
Quote:
And homos who want to marry ...will be responsible for fewer marrriages?
Is that really what you're saying? If so, did you pull a muscle arriving at these conclusions?
Just quoting Dutch advocates of same-sex marriage. Why don't you ask them for clarification.
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Old 10-14-2007, 02:42 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
[B]
"Put same-sex marriage aside for a moment, this was also the argument in the 90's about single-family households and Murphy Brown."

but you're blaming gay people for straight failures. one has nothing to do with one another. nothing.






[q]Just quoting Dutch advocates of same-sex marriage. Why don't you ask them for clarification. [/q]

why are you assuming that these two wild quotes from far left politicians are representative of majority Dutch opinion, or even that such motivations are present in the United States.

i have never, ever heard any serious public figure in the United States make those arguments.

anyway, again, there's a huge irony here: the only people arguing for a smorgasboard of relationship options are straight people. we are at a point where all of the Democratic candidates, a majority of US citizens, and even many Republicans, are all in favor of Civil Unions. it's gay people who want marriage, not a Diet Marriage, but all we seem to be able to get, right now, is this Marriage Lite option.

so, again, it is STRAIGHT people and their inability to view gay people as their human equivalents that are creating this relationship smorgasboard that you so seem to fear. it is not gay people at all. the mainstream gay position, for now, is that we want marriage, but we'll have to settle for civil unions.

again: ALL YOUR FAULT.

stop blaming me for the inability of straight people to live up to your ideals.
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Old 10-14-2007, 02:47 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
Kurtz: In the mid-1990s, out-of-wedlock births, already rising, began a steeper increase


Kurtz: No Western society has secularized more radically or rapidly than Holland. The Netherlands changed from one of the most religious countries in Europe to one of the most secular. Today, nearly three-quarters of the Dutch under 35 claim no religious affiliation.


Kurtz: The cultural revolution of the 1960s weakened the churches. Once faith became too fragile to sustain the social order, the pillars collapsed.... Even as premarital cohabitation became nearly universal, and as cohabitation acquired virtually equal status with marriage under Dutch law in the 1980s


what does any of this have to do with gay people who want to get married?
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Old 10-14-2007, 02:52 PM   #85
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It has also become a lot easier to get divorced in the last 2-3 decades (depending on the jurisdiction) which accounts for a large number of the divorces obtained since.

But then I suppose some people would prefer that one stay miserable in a marriage like they used to back in the 50s.
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Old 10-14-2007, 03:29 PM   #86
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Originally posted by Irvine511


do you realize the leap you're making when you're blaming the decline of striaght marriages on the rise of gay marriage? you realize that one has NOTHING to do with one another? these are very, very basic Psychology 101 mistakes you're making. the *only* correlation that might be made is when civil unions become an option #2, and open to everyone. then, you might see straights entering into relationships that have been definitionally created as "separate but equal" and, due to your need to kick gay people, they aren't as strong as marriage. however, this is another straight issue that you're foisting on gay people. and thusly, the only way to solve it, is to remove discrimination from marriage and have it open to consenting adult partners, gay or straight.

You overanalyze, if this were a debate it would start off:

Proposed (pun not intended)
* Spend enough time telling people that marriage is not about parenthood and they just might begin to believe you. Make household diversity and relationship equality a rallying cry, remove societal supports, and people might decide that all forms of relationship are equal -- especially young people, of family-forming age, most of whom have left religion behind. *

Now this debate started decades before any country sanctioned same-sex marriage. It isn't "Gays are ruining everything" it's "are all forms of relationships equal?" and "should society promote any above the others?"

I think that's a debate worth having. Those in the "Just let people live their lives any way they damn well please and keep your nose out of their business" crowd don't.

Quote:
if you're so concerned with the decline of heteorsexual marriage, then lets push legislation that have prohibitions on divorce, birth control, adultery, and female employment.

deal with your own shit, don't put it on me. i haven't done anything except ask to be treated like a citizen of the United States.
On what grounds? Personal responsibility is out. Morality is out.
Remember it's "Just let people live their lives any way they damn well please and keep your nose out of their business."
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Old 10-14-2007, 03:29 PM   #87
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Racists had the same exact "science" to back up their views that integration was a bad thing.
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Old 10-14-2007, 03:34 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
On what grounds? Personal responsibility is out. Morality is out.
Remember it's "Just let people live their lives any way they damn well please and keep your nose out of their business."
Who needs "personal responsibility" when we can blame "the gays" instead?
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Old 10-14-2007, 03:34 PM   #89
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Originally posted by INDY500
"should society promote any above the others?"
Do you think it should?
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Old 10-14-2007, 03:39 PM   #90
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Personal responsibility is out. Morality is out.
That's your fault, not ours...
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