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Old 10-13-2007, 02:30 PM   #46
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Originally posted by INDY500
As for your and Melon's other point, the 14th amendment and "Equal Protection" could be used as an argument for civil unions but not, IMO, marriage.
That's not a valid argument, because it has already been established that "separate but equal" is an invalid interpretation of the 14th amendment. In other words, what you arguing in favor of here is the equivalent reasoning in favor of racial segregation.

The proper remedy, in accordance with the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment, is to put everyone in the same category under the same name. That is, everyone would have a "marriage" under the law or everyone would have a "civil union" under the law. Putting heterosexuals under "marriage" and homosexuals under "civil unions" is a "separate but equal" category that is prohibited on the basis of the 14th amendment.

Of course, the larger reality is that "civil unions" aren't even "equal" to marriage under the law, so that ultimately makes this argument against separate classification even stronger; not to mention that I find the name to be completely insulting.
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Old 10-13-2007, 02:48 PM   #47
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Originally posted by INDY500

Just don't argue as A_Wanderer does that morality derived from religion should not be permitted to shape those laws should they carry the argument.
I still want to see those "secular" arguments you speak of...
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Old 10-13-2007, 02:59 PM   #48
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Originally posted by phillyfan26


So, you don't think that it's a civil rights issue? Because if you do, I don't see how you can state that.

And for the last part of your post, I'll join Martha in saying, "Why not?"
Since this is a campaign thread and not a same-sex marriage thread, I'll give you a quote from the presidential candidate that best shares my view on the issue.

"My personal belief is that marriage is between one man and one woman, for life."
--Mike Huckabee

Feel free to do the same.
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Old 10-13-2007, 03:02 PM   #49
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Way to avoid
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Old 10-13-2007, 03:05 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
"My personal belief is that marriage is between one man and one woman, for life."
--Mike Huckabee

Feel free to do the same.
Ah yes...nothing like supporting the status quo just for the hell of it.
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Old 10-13-2007, 03:08 PM   #51
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Ah yes...nothing like supporting the status quo just for the hell of it.
Which candidate said that?
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Old 10-13-2007, 03:08 PM   #52
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Emphasize on "My personal belief".

Everybody is allowed to have a personal belief, but it's an entirely different thing when it comes to legislation.
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Old 10-13-2007, 03:15 PM   #53
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Which candidate said that?
If memory serves right "status quo" was your very first argument against gay marriage in FYM, but we all know that's just an avoidance of the real reasonings.
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Old 10-13-2007, 03:16 PM   #54
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Originally posted by INDY500
Which candidate said that?
My point that it's easy to dig in your heels and not want anything to change when it doesn't affect you at all. So if you're a lifelong "good conservative," there's no need to rock the boat when locking all the homosexuals back into the closet and forgetting that they ever existed doesn't change your life one iota and allows you to keep all your conservative friendships happy and intact.

I have a hunch that has a lot to do with your opinion on this subject.
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Old 10-13-2007, 03:17 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


Since this is a campaign thread and not a same-sex marriage thread, I'll give you a quote from the presidential candidate that best shares my view on the issue.

"My personal belief is that marriage is between one man and one woman, for life."
--Mike Huckabee

Feel free to do the same.
An amazing cop-out!

Let's run that through the translator: "I have no real reasons other than Biblical reasons, and I know those won't fly, so I'll just quote someone else."
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Old 10-13-2007, 04:04 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
"My personal belief is that marriage is between one man and one woman, for life."
--Mike Huckabee


but if you go onto Huckabee's website and actually read his position, it's thoroughly nonsensical and illogical.

here:

[q]The late Cardinal O'Connor decried a domestic partnership law (which provided that all couples who signed up, whether heterosexual or homosexual, would be treated the same as married couples) as legislating that "marriage doesn't matter." I agree with the Cardinal that marriage does matter, I would add that nothing in our society matters more. Our true strength doesn't come from our military or our gross national product, it comes from our families. What's the point of keeping the terrorists at bay in the Middle East if we can't keep decline and decadence at bay here at home? The growing number of children born out of wedlock and the rise in no-fault divorce have been a disaster for our society. They have pushed many women and children into poverty and onto the welfare, food stamp, and Medicaid rolls. These children are more likely to drop out of school and end up in low-paying, dead-end jobs, they are more likely to get involved with drugs and crime, they are more likely to have children out of wedlock or get divorced themselves someday, continuing the unhappy cycle.

[/q]


i'm being blamed for drugs, poverty, and terrorism. it makes no sense whatsoever, and so, in order to gussy up our homophobia (or, i'd argue, the homophobia of our constituents), we either toss every issue as one of "decadance" or "decline" and make these incredibly wild leaps of logic, or we say, "it's my personal belief."

and, yes, the Democrats do this too. the difference, however, is at least they want me to have dinner, even if it means i have to sit at a different table. the Republicans would rather i stand outside in the rain and go hungry. for NO OTHER REASON than they don't like me for reasons they can't justify or explain.
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Old 10-13-2007, 04:28 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


An amazing cop-out!

Let's run that through the translator: "I have no real reasons other than Biblical reasons, and I know those won't fly, so I'll just quote someone else."
By all means, feel free to rummage through the archives. Here's a few but I'm sure there were more.

http://forum.interference.com/t160707.html

http://forum.interference.com/t161767.html
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Old 10-13-2007, 04:32 PM   #58
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Yeah. Old gay-marriage threads.
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Old 10-13-2007, 04:47 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




but if you go onto Huckabee's website and actually read his position, it's thoroughly nonsensical and illogical.

here:

[q]The late Cardinal O'Connor decried a domestic partnership law (which provided that all couples who signed up, whether heterosexual or homosexual, would be treated the same as married couples) as legislating that "marriage doesn't matter." I agree with the Cardinal that marriage does matter, I would add that nothing in our society matters more. Our true strength doesn't come from our military or our gross national product, it comes from our families. What's the point of keeping the terrorists at bay in the Middle East if we can't keep decline and decadence at bay here at home? The growing number of children born out of wedlock and the rise in no-fault divorce have been a disaster for our society. They have pushed many women and children into poverty and onto the welfare, food stamp, and Medicaid rolls. These children are more likely to drop out of school and end up in low-paying, dead-end jobs, they are more likely to get involved with drugs and crime, they are more likely to have children out of wedlock or get divorced themselves someday, continuing the unhappy cycle.

[/q]


i'm being blamed for drugs, poverty, and terrorism. it makes no sense whatsoever, and so, in order to gussy up our homophobia (or, i'd argue, the homophobia of our constituents), we either toss every issue as one of "decadance" or "decline" and make these incredibly wild leaps of logic, or we say, "it's my personal belief."

and, yes, the Democrats do this too. the difference, however, is at least they want me to have dinner, even if it means i have to sit at a different table. the Republicans would rather i stand outside in the rain and go hungry. for NO OTHER REASON than they don't like me for reasons they can't justify or explain.
Think he's addressing the divorce rate and it's effects, however, the tie in at the beginning is that there is some evidence that legalizing same-sex marriage has the unintended consequence of lowering the overall marriage rate.
That was debated in a past thread as well.
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Old 10-13-2007, 05:03 PM   #60
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And it's bogus.
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