SPLIT--> California's Proposition 8 on Same-Sex Marriage

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Question: How does everyone fell about civil unions that allow for the same rights as a married couple with out the "married" title?
My main reaction to them is, What the heck is the point? How on earth is whatever you think you're protecting society from going to be stopped by merely renaming the rights you're otherwise conferring?
 
married people: why did you want to get married in the first palce?

singles: do you want to get married? if so, why?

maybe we do need to have a discussion about marriage, what it means, what it does for the individual and for society, and what it does for our society.

i am convinced that such a discussion will make the argument for same sex marriage even more convincing.
 
My main reaction to them is, What the heck is the point? How on earth is whatever you think you're protecting society from going to be stopped by merely renaming the rights you're otherwise conferring?


I guess it depends on what side of the fence you are standing on. From the side for same-sex marriage, I mainly hear that it is about the "rights". Property, hospital visits, etc. This is a major argument I have heard made. I hear this more than the emotional attachments of marriage. It seems it is more about the legal aspects. If civil unions give you this, whats the difference.

When you say "protecting society", it seems you are trying to look at if from point of view of the people that do not support this position. I dont see how 'protecting society" comes into play either way. People were gay in the past, they are guys here today and they will be part of our countries future. This issues is not going ot have any effect on that basic fact.


That being said, how do you all feel about your guys Obama and Biden not supporting gay marriage?
 
I think Obama and Biden are backwards for not supporting it.

Sadly in your country this seems a position one must have.

I am not an American citizen and I will never be one (I'd have to give up one of my other citizenships for it and I have no interest in doing so). Mercifully where I come from, gays and lesbians are free to marry and even our right wing parties have faced reality and are no longer making an issue of it.
 
I guess it depends on what side of the fence you are standing on. From the side for same-sex marriage, I mainly hear that it is about the "rights". Property, hospital visits, etc. This is a major argument I have heard made. I hear this more than the emotional attachments of marriage. It seems it is more about the legal aspects. If civil unions give you this, whats the difference.
No, it doesn't depend on what side you are... The reason you hear the legal arguments and not the emotional is because that's what the opposition has widdled it down to. They say well I don't care if you live together or love each other, so at the end of the day the fight is for equality of rights. Right now civil unions don't give you full equailty.

When you say "protecting society", it seems you are trying to look at if from point of view of the people that do not support this position. I dont see how 'protecting society" comes into play either way. People were gay in the past, they are guys here today and they will be part of our countries future. This issues is not going ot have any effect on that basic fact.
I'm glad you are wise enough to see this. Then if there is nothing to protect why are you on the fence? If it won't protect society, then why protect the word? Seems pretty silly to me.

That being said, how do you all feel about your guys Obama and Biden not supporting gay marriage?
Obama was one of the first to place in his platform that he wants full equality between civil unions and marriage, the only difference will be the word. I think the concept of if the church wants to provide gay marriage it should be left up to them, you can't force them to marry two people they don't want to, and why would you want to get married in a church that doesn't want you... their loss.
 
Mercifully where I come from, gays and lesbians are free to marry and even our right wing parties have faced reality and are no longer making an issue of it.

That's impossible.

Your country must be less than ideal to raise children.

god-hates-fags-kids.jpg
 
I'm not sure any answers I could give would clarify much, because I always conceived of getting married in light of a religious worldview. I was never the type to sit around fantasizing about 'my wedding day,' but to the extent that I envisioned it beforehand, I always pictured a synagogue ceremony, having a normal observant household together, things like that. The specific rights and benefits conferred through a marriage license are in practice necessary tools for fully implementing that vision, but obviously that's not where the cultural value, the ritual value, of marriage really comes from. It's a voluntarily undertaken rite of passage to a new, jointly held role within your community, usually entered into with your friends and families and colleagues gathered all around you. For many it changes relatively little about the day-to-day facts of one's life, at least in the short-term; for most it does effect a change in how you understand yourself, your social commitments and responsibilities, and your future with your partner. For most that commitment makes you stronger, increases your satisfaction in life and paradoxically makes you more responsible (paradoxical, because at the same time your fate and the consequences of most everything you do become deeply intertwined with someone else's, and vice versa); but of course there's no guarantee it'll turn out that way, because it's an ever-evolving process and requires mutual sustained effort. (You could apply the preceding sentence to parenthood as well, though that usually changes the more concrete aspects of your life in much more far-reaching ways than marriage does.)

Since the ban on same-sex marriages was lifted in my denomination, we've had two same-sex weddings in our synagogue; three of those people are longstanding members, one couple are close friends of ours. Sadly, in the eyes of our state they're not married (we don't have civil unions here, either, nor are gay men and lesbians protected from employment and housing discrimination, save for government jobs). That makes me sick to my stomach because as far as I'm concerned they're married, as far as everyone in our synagogue is concerned they're married, but no one else recognizes it, and broad community recognition is really essential to what makes marriage marriage. Yes, Zach and Phil, that empathy-challenged, unstable, unkindly twosome whose very existence threatens my marriage and my family and the stability of society itself. (And gosh, what about my family?--female sole breadwinner, so our poor kids are left alone with their biologically-nurturance-challenged male parent all day. :shocked: ) Why should they be scapegoated so that the rest of us can continue running our families in ways that suit our unique circumstances and our gifts as individuals, yet be given a pass for it because the sex composition of our households passes muster? If it weren't so stomach-turningly degrading, it would be downright funny.
Then if there is nothing to protect why are you on the fence? If it won't protect society, then why protect the word?
Yes, this was pretty much my point.
 
married people: why did you want to get married?


Because I love him, and we both wanted the full commitment of marriage. That's it really.

We could have lived together, but neither of us wanted that. We wanted to be married to each other.

That's why I so support marriage for all. It is such a wonderful thing when two people make that commitment to one another.
 
This vote is about giving rights and respect to same-sex couples.

It boggles my mind that you can understand this and yet still not know which way you will vote on this proposition. Legalising same sex marriage really does boil down to respecting gays and lesbians as completely human and as full members of society. We can't fully respect those we think of as lesser beings, and withholding validation of same sex relationships is a clear sign that is exactly what gays and lesbians are considered. I cannot fathom how treating some people as lesser beings is good for anyone.


Hey guess what, I feel tribute bands should be banned. Many agree with me, should we make it law?:hyper:

Why would anyone want to ban tribute bands?

Well, they are the enemy of art after all, so that's reason enough to ban them. ;)
 
It boggles my mind that you can understand this and yet still not know which way you will vote on this proposition.


For me, there's more to it than just this and it is not just an issues of religion or bias or whatever other BS that typically gets thrown out. I have chosen not to get in to my questions and thought process on the conservative side because 1. its too much to try to type and express in a post without it being unclear or misunderstood. 2. I'm not in the mood to have my views and the process I am using to decide what I want to do called venomous or biased or the like. As I said before, I respect everyones opinion even if it does not agree with mine. It's a shame that that there are some on here that are unable to do likewise. Seems more that a little ironic that you are fighting for gay rights and want conservatives, to respect their rights and opinions even if they don't agree with them but you cannot do the same for the conservative rights and opinions that you do not agree with. The word hypocritical comes to mind.
 
I don't begrudge gay people (who even in a mean country like America teeming with homophobes) have found increasing acceptance from taking the next step and seeking legally recognized marriage as it's not without it's merits. But I do resent how it's being done (through judicial activism rather than democratic means, denigrating religious morals and slandering same-sex marriage opponents as modern-day Bull Connors.)

That's me on 9/27 earlier in this thread and sure enough, on 10/9 from irvine we get
the state of california forcibly eradicating hundreds of thousands of marriages would be the equivalent of Bull Connor turning the fire hoses and dogs on civil rights activists.

which is insulting both to the citizens of Californian and the victims of racial segregation in this country's history. Not to mention just plain wrong. In the California decision it was noted that the state's domestic-partnership law already gave gay couples "virtually all of the legal rights and responsibilities accorded married couples under California law." In other words, equal protection. That's your fallback position. Did blacks in Birmingham have anything approaching equal protection or equal rights under the law in 1963?

And now another state (Connecticut, the 3rd) has seen their state Supreme Court (by a 1 vote margin for the 3rd time) strike down their state's marriage laws. Not only had Connecticut's legislature not recognized same-sex marriage when it instituted civil unions just a few years earlier but the state's governor, Jodi Rell, said she personally disagreed with the decision and further stated “I do not believe their voice reflects the majority of the people of Connecticut." So, if the people and their elected officials oppose same-sex marriage then how did it become law?

Well, it was imposed upon them. Writing for the majority, Justice Richard N. Palmer wrote “...our conventional understanding of marriage must yield to a more contemporary appreciation of the rights entitled to constitutional protection.” Robert D. McFadden in the NY Times actually called this "language that often rose above the legal landscape into realms of social justice for a new century."

Excuse me, pardon me, but shouldn't the realm of judges be, you know, confined to the "legal landscape"? Is that really too much to expect? Apparently so, because four judges have just told the legislature, the governor, the people Connecticut and their combined laws, traditions and moral systems to... take a hike... piss off. That they, and they alone, possess "contemporary appreciation" of rights. That they, and they alone, understand the definition of marriage. And that they, and they alone will decide the timetable to advance "social justice for a new century."

If you believe:

-- Gays living under civil unions laws to be the equivalent of blacks living under Jim Crow laws.

-- Judges should empathize from the bench rather than limit themselves to the law.

-- Autocracy a better form of government than constitutional democracy.

Than Friday was a really good day for you.
 
See, Indy, at least you stick to your guns. You don't want equal protection for a class of people, so you're willing to write them out of California's constitution. You're willing to alter a state's constitution to include prejudice and exclusion. Not everyone's willing to admit to that.
 
Just highlighting the important parts of your post for you.
Of coarse you left out the preceeding words

“more contemporary appreciation of..."

I.e, that is to say, read into the state constitution a meaning that heretofore had gone unnoticed by all previous state Supreme Courts and legislatures.

see also: legal sleight-of-hand, judicial activism, creating law rather than interpreting law, legislating from the bench and creating rights without all that rigamarole about amending the constitution.
 
INDY you seem to have a problem with the common law legal system.

Perhaps France would be better suited for you?
 
Indy...do you think that it is more important for the law to reflect the will of the people than it is for the law to be RIGHT?
 
Indy...do you think that it is more important for the law to reflect the will of the people than it is for the law to be RIGHT?

Do you think it appropriate that RIGHT be decided by a margin of 4 unelected judges to 3 unelected judges?

Do you think it appropriate that RIGHT be debated by lawyers in a closed courtroom rather than amongst citizens and their elected legislators in a public forum.
 
which is insulting both to the citizens of Californian and the victims of racial segregation in this country's history. Not to mention just plain wrong. In the California decision it was noted that the state's domestic-partnership law already gave gay couples "virtually all of the legal rights and responsibilities accorded married couples under California law." In other words, equal protection. That's your fallback position. Did blacks in Birmingham have anything approaching equal protection or equal rights under the law in 1963?

Gays have virtually all the legal rights of married couples in California. Why can't these gays just understand that when it comes to marriage, they are separate but equal?

We come then to the question presented: Does segregation of children in public schools solely on the basis of race, even though the physical facilities and other "tangible" factors may be equal, deprive the children of the minority group of equal educational opportunities? We believe that it does.

The crux of Brown v. Board of Education declared that "separate but equal" is inherently unequal, regardless of the actual conditions.
 
In the California decision it was noted that the state's domestic-partnership law already gave gay couples "virtually all of the legal rights and responsibilities accorded married couples under California law." In other words, equal protection.

In what world does "virtually" mean equal?

It sounds like separate but not equal to me.
 
Do you think it appropriate that RIGHT be decided by a margin of 4 unelected judges to 3 unelected judges?

Do you think it appropriate that RIGHT be debated by lawyers in a closed courtroom rather than amongst citizens and their elected legislators in a public forum.


I dunno. Ask the good folks of Topeka, Kansas. Their RIGHT to discriminate was eliminated by the activist Supreme Court. Ask the citizens of Montgomery, Alabama. Their RIGHT to ride in the front of the bus was eliminated by the Supreme Court.

Neither of these groups had any democratic say in their RIGHTS being terminated. :sad:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom