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Old 11-07-2008, 12:55 AM   #916
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Originally Posted by onebloodonelife View Post


I have a question for the "Yes" supporters, have any of you actually attended any sort of ceremony, marriage or civil union, between two homosexual people? (EDIT: Of course, I'm sure the answer is no...)
Our mail carrier commented on our No on 8 signs today and admitted that she had been on the fence about it but voted yes because she doesn't know any gay people and wouldn't be personally affected by the outcome
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Old 11-07-2008, 01:20 AM   #917
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damn, i knew i should have come over more!
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Old 11-07-2008, 01:21 AM   #918
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Our mail carrier commented on our No on 8 signs today and admitted that she had been on the fence about it but voted yes because she doesn't know any gay people and wouldn't be personally affected by the outcome
Perhaps you should tell her that you voted "No" on a pay increase for postal carriers because you don't know any postal carriers. Maybe you should also vote no on cancer research because you don't know anyone with cancer.

Etc, etc.

It's the silliest thing I've ever heard.
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Old 11-07-2008, 01:26 AM   #919
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[QUOTE=Irvine511;5594512]
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so what do we do?

i expect that one day, probably not too far away, we'll do something official.
I dare you to invite me.



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Old 11-07-2008, 03:35 AM   #920
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Wow, you didn't read anything else of that post, did you?
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Old 11-07-2008, 06:57 AM   #921
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Emotions are what separates liberals from conservatives. Clearly, even if both understood, which is doubtful at this point, I'm not entirely sure if they'd care. Ideology is greater than people, and the ends justify the means.
I think you need to clarify that statement, opposition to abortion seems to be exceptionally emotional.
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Old 11-07-2008, 07:00 AM   #922
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I dare you to invite me.
Currently, this could never happen, thanks to people like yourself.

Oh, the irony.

Way to miss the entire point of his post.
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Old 11-07-2008, 08:12 AM   #923
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Currently, this could never happen, thanks to people like yourself.

Oh, the irony.

Way to miss the entire point of his post.
insults aside,

why don't we let irvine answer that-instead of you.

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Old 11-07-2008, 08:25 AM   #924
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I think you need to clarify that statement, opposition to abortion seems to be exceptionally emotional.
Nope. Not one bit. Christian tradition declares that life begins at conception (never mind that St. Thomas Aquinas, probably the most influential theologian in Christian tradition ahead of St. Augustine of Hippo and St. Paul argued, essentially, that the soul entered the fetus at three months). For that reason alone, many Christians are perfectly ready to force women to have children against their will, even in cases of rape or incest.

Ideology before people.
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Old 11-07-2008, 08:35 AM   #925
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All people can be scum when they need to be, I don't think the assertion that liberals/progressives/leftists are inherently more caring or empathetic than conservatives is accurate, it is probably more a question of definition than anything else (is a devout anti-abortionist who thinks that the state shouldn't intrude into peoples lives and legislate against abortion not a conservative). I wouldn't disagree that anti-gay reactionaries would prefer you didn't exist and that their worldview doesn't gel with principles of equal treatment under the law.
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Old 11-07-2008, 08:50 AM   #926
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so what do we do?

we continuously lose on this issue at the ballot box, often big-time.

granted, in nearly any other year, and certainly without the massive influence of the Mormon church, Prop 8 would not have passed.

but it did. the campaign obviously worked.

how do we fight back? we are not winning this argument, even though there is no argument on the other side. how and why are we so easily defeated?

anyone who believes in the basic dignity and equality of gay citizens needs to ask themselves these questions.
We must learn from the struggles of the the American civil rights movement and that of the Jewish struggle for freedom and dignity over the last 2,000 years. We can also learn from César Chávez and other labor organizers, who fought for living wages and benefits for the working class.

In other words, as much as a moment like this is a time for lament, we can earnestly say that our struggle is not without precedent. What it does require--and I think that this is something that the last 2-3 generations have little discipline for, in particular--is dedication and hard work. That means long, loud, and consistent protests, in the tradition of Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. The gay community also has, according to the financial world, a disproportionately high percentage of saved income, which is sizeable and our spending is very noticed. Perhaps it would also be necessary to couple those protests with a long and protracted nationwide economic boycott of all non-essential goods. Chávez's grape strike took five years to resolve in their favor; could we have the discipline to go that long too?

In short, what the gay community needs to do, more than ever, is fight and fight legally. No more conceding religion to the Religious Right; I've argued repeatedly and consistently why their views on religion are little more than what Mortimer Adler would call "superstition," at least, and absolutely wrong, at most. Their interpretation of law is also blatantly wrong. Their interpretation of the First Amendment and freedom of speech is laughably ignorant. They do, of course, have every right to believe what they believe, no matter how wrong it is. However, the gay community has every right to challenge them and point out how wrong they are every step of the way, meaning that they do not have a constitutional right, as they would like to imply, to have unchallenged beliefs because they are self-described "religious." Not only do they not have a monopoly on God, but, as far as I see it, God is nowhere near their belief system. The gay community needs to understand and believe this too, and I believe it will be much easier to be assertive against them.

The real question is whether the community is ready for the sacrifice required to do this, and whether a true leader in the gay community--our Gandhi, our MLK, Jr.--can emerge. The current "leaders" are--I'm sorry to say--pretty much little more than spineless whores for the Democratic Party apparatus, who continue to string us along with patronizing and unfulfilled vague promises of "more rights," but not all rights. This is the party, however, that passed and signed the federal Defense of Marriage Act in the 1990s. Why should we trust anything they have to say at their word? Undoubtedly, the Democratic Party is likely to be the more receptive party of the two to our message, but, even at that, I do not think they take us or our struggle seriously at all. What I can say for sure, at the very least, is that this is not going to change, as long as we sit back and do nothing.
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Old 11-07-2008, 08:56 AM   #927
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Originally Posted by A_Wanderer View Post
All people can be scum when they need to be, I don't think the assertion that liberals/progressives/leftists are inherently more caring or empathetic than conservatives is accurate, it is probably more a question of definition than anything else (is a devout anti-abortionist who thinks that the state shouldn't intrude into peoples lives and legislate against abortion not a conservative). I wouldn't disagree that anti-gay reactionaries would prefer you didn't exist and that their worldview doesn't gel with principles of equal treatment under the law.
The devout anti-abortionist who believes that the state shouldn't intrude probably doesn't exist. Nonetheless, they would likely fall under the banner of "pro-choice" then. I'd say most pro-choice individuals are personally against abortion too, and would likely discourage family and friends from having one, if asked.

I think the reality is that liberals understand nuance and context, whereas nuance and context are irrelevant in the essentialist view of the conservative world.
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Old 11-07-2008, 09:04 AM   #928
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Gay rights or votes, can you have both?
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Old 11-07-2008, 09:13 AM   #929
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Gay rights or votes, can you have both?
Did the African American civil rights leaders care about the political popularity of their rights, or were they more concerned about reclaiming their inalienable rights guaranteed to them by natural law (according to Locke) and the Constitution? Likewise, the gay rights movement must have the same perspective. Those like the oblivious mail carrier who voted "Yes" on Prop. 8 out of total ambivalence are not unlike many white Americans on race by the early 1960s. Sitting back and doing nothing is not going to change any minds.
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Old 11-07-2008, 09:27 AM   #930
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My first instinct was to label you a Democrat, if there were other parties vying for gay votes it could force change, the Democrats enjoy the luxury of being the lesser of two evils.
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