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Old 11-06-2008, 04:31 PM   #871
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What I don't understand is that if same-sex marriage would supposedly influence kids to "become" gay, wouldn't heterosexual marriage have the same amount of influence?
Oh, you're being to rational.....
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:34 PM   #872
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I don't know if anyone has said something about this, but I just thought I'd throw it out there :

In October 2007, Arnold Schwarzenegger vetoed AB 43, because of the people's vote on prop 22 in 2000.
A year later he's publicly associated with the anti-Proposition 8 campaign.
So is he now in favour of same sex marriage?
Clearly he wants the voters to decide on the matter.
Do you think he thought the outcome would have been different?
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:35 PM   #873
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i think Schwarzenegger's silence, and Obama's silence, was not a good thing. i think their support might have made the difference.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:40 PM   #874
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according to my mother "the only reason gays want to get married is so that they can adopt kids so that they can make them gay since they can't reproduce"
yep, don't ask for the logic cause there is none. Even more embarrassing to reveal is that she told me she went for an hour on Sunday evening to church cause there was a large praying group so that Prop8 would pass.
I think of myself as a Christian but nowhere near my parents' version of one. Actually, it's to the point where it's an embarrassing to even say I am one. Cause you know voting Democrat is siding with the devil.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:42 PM   #875
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Oh, you're being to rational.....
I know, silly me bringing actual logic into this argument.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:44 PM   #876
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according to my mother "the only reason gays want to get married is so that they can adopt kids so that they can make them gay since they can't reproduce"



does your mother know any gay people? what do you think might make a difference in her thinking?

i ask because it's obvious that appeals to basic fairness and equal treatment under the law, as well as pointing out the clear parallels to other civil rights movements in the past, aren't working terribly well.

we need to go about this in a different way.

i know that we are right. and i know that they are wrong. and i want to find out the best way to convince them that we are right, and they are wrong.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:46 PM   #877
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i think Schwarzenegger's silence, and Obama's silence, was not a good thing. i think their support might have made the difference.
The Bay Area Reporter Online | Breaking news: <br>Prop 8 opponents concede

The No on Prop 8 campaign today conceded, calling the passage of a constitutional amendment in California banning same-sex marriage "heartbreaking."

In a conference call with reporters November 6, members of the No on 8 executive committee fielded questions about lessons learned from the campaign. With 100 percent of precincts reporting, Prop 8 passed with 52.5 percent of the vote, compared with 47.5 percent of those voting against it, unofficial results from the secretary of state showed.

"This is a very disappointing moment," said Kate Kendell, a No on 8 executive committee member and executive director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights.

She predicted that same-sex marriage would one day be legal across the country, not just in California, but acknowledged "that day is not today."

"I think this is a temporary defeat," echoed Lorri Jean, an executive committee member and CEO of the LA Gay and Lesbian Center.

Jean and others defended their campaign, but said that the Yes on 8 campaign's last-minute mailer showing Barack Obama and urging a yes vote on Prop 8 was devastating, particularly in the African American community. While Obama does not support same-sex marriage he did oppose Prop 8. The mailer showed Obama with quotes he has said about same-sex marriage, with a "Vote yes on Prop 8" banner at the bottom. The Yes on 8 side also used robo calls featuring Obama stating he does not favor same-sex marriage.

The No on 8 side countered with its own robo call featuring Obama saying he opposed Prop 8.

Exit polls showed seven out of 10 African American voters cast ballots in favor of Prop 8.

Andrea Shorter, who led And Marriage for All, a group of mostly black LGBT and allied groups, said more work needed to be done in the African American community.

"You look at the Yes on 8 campaign going after certain segments of the community – and capitalize and exploit churchgoers, using children and [churches] tax-exempt status – and we have work to do, no doubt about it," she said.

"For me it's a little hard to believe it's that high," she added, referring to the exit poll data.

Jean laid the blame squarely on the Yes side's mailer, pointing out that the October 31 Field Poll showed African American voters were pretty evenly split on Prop 8. The mailer began arriving that day.

"What happened? More lies and deception," she said. "People were misled. We didn't have enough time to respond to that."

Jean and others on the call said that No on 8 would be doing an analysis of the campaign to see what other lessons could be learned.

Kendell said that No on 8 "probably could have done better" among African Americans and communities of color.

"We underestimated the other side's ads and [people] heard Barack Obama's voice and then were told to vote yes," Kendell said, adding that people "hear that and it gives cover" to vote yes.

Kendell said one thing that was learned was that in the African American community more personal conversations are needed with black LGBT folks telling their stories.

"It can't be done by white leaders," she added. "I think that's a real lesson learned."

But Kendell said many in the African American community stood with the LGBT community.

"There is not a division between the LGBT community and African American leadership," she said. "There are alliances to be made. Our challenge is to deepen those alliances."

The campaign was asked why it didn't use Obama's opposition more forcefully, as well as Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, who also opposed Prop 8.

Kendell said that No on 8 "pushed out" Obama's opposition to Prop 8 and it was "something we used in the final ad." Regarding the governor, she said he was embroiled in a monthlong budget battle and that No on 8 also used his opposition to Prop 8 in the final ad.


Few gays on TV

The speakers also were asked about the dearth of gays and lesbians from the No on 8 television ads, a criticism that cropped up even as the campaign was under way, with some local gays decrying No on 8's early commercials as lackluster.

"Generally, I think lesbian and gay people were everywhere in this campaign," said Geoff Kors, an executive committee member. He said gays and lesbians were in video clips that ran on YouTube, and that same-sex couples who were getting married throughout the summer and fall often were featured in the news.

"For the TV ads, the messages were extensively tested and were effective," he said. "The other side had a lot more money early on."

The campaign also acknowledged that Yes on 8's first TV ad, featuring San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom bellowing that same-sex marriage is happening "whether you like it or not" greatly changed the dynamics of the race.

"There is no doubt we saw our support erode," Kendell said, calling the Yes on 8 advertising "an onslaught."

The issue of schoolchildren being taught about same-sex marriage in public schools also was tough for No on 8 to knock down. Kors noted that the TV ad with state Superintendent of Public Instruction Jack O'Connell, in which he called Yes on 8's ads "shameful," was never supposed to be an ad.

"This campaign combated as muscularly as we could," Kendell said. She also said that another lesson learned was the importance of having conversations about "what really happens in school."

"I think those messages really did hurt us," she said.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:48 PM   #878
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I'm really trying to hold back from going on a profanity laced rant against people like INDY and Nathan.

At least, please, man up, the two of you, and actually discuss the issues people are bringing up instead of shying away from discussion.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:49 PM   #879
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I think of myself as a Christian but nowhere near my parents' version of one. Actually, it's to the point where it's an embarrassing to even say I am one.
Don't be afraid to say you're Christian. Just say that you're practicing the tolerance, love and acceptance part.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:51 PM   #880
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I'm really trying to hold back from going on a profanity laced rant against people like INDY and Nathan.

At least, please, man up, the two of you, and actually discuss the issues people are bringing up instead of shying away from discussion.


to their credit, they have put forth arguments that go beyond the superficial.

i disagree with their arguments and find them little more than rationalizations, but at least they have come forth and argued an unpopular position in FYM.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:51 PM   #881
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she doesn't know any gay people, and i don't think anything will change her mind, honestly. she listens to this atrocious spanish christian am radio station and she repeats everything verbatim that she hears, completely brainwashed. she always has it on at their house, and it's even more biased than Fox, I mean all they do is talk crap about Prop 8/ Democrats while praising Bush, McCain and blaming our shitty economy on Clinton.
seriously, having to hear her rant about Obama for months in an attempt to persuade me to change my decision was so painful and irrittating I didnt go over there for weeks.
and the only relieving factor in all of it, is that thankfully I'm adopted and they're not my biological parents, ha.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:53 PM   #882
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Originally Posted by phillyfan26 View Post
I'm really trying to hold back from going on a profanity laced rant against people like INDY and Nathan.

At least, please, man up, the two of you, and actually discuss the issues people are bringing up instead of shying away from discussion.


That never happens, buddy. Ever. And it's not shying away, it's avoiding. There's a low of that going on on that side of the argument. It's hard to argue when you don't believe in the need for "facts".
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:53 PM   #883
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to their credit, they have put forth arguments that go beyond the superficial.

i disagree with their arguments and find them little more than rationalizations, but at least they have come forth and argued an unpopular position in FYM.
This is true. I just don't like when people come back and post while ignoring the many posts asking completely legitimate questions.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:54 PM   #884
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This is true. I just don't like when people come back and post while ignoring the many posts asking completely legitimate questions.


i agree with that. it does suggest a level of insecurity, if not cowardice, in their own arguments.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:56 PM   #885
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That never happens, buddy. Ever. And it's not shying away, it's avoiding. There's a low of that going on on that side of the argument. It's hard to argue when you don't believe in the need for "facts".
Hey, English major. The period goes inside the quotation marks.

And, yes, you are truthful.
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