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Old 11-06-2008, 03:49 PM   #856
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i want to understand that thought process.

Is it a thought process, or something deeper than what can be articulated?
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:55 PM   #857
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i totally understand and appreciate the kind words.

however, i am curious to know why this line of thought -- gays as a threat -- is resonant with some people. i want to understand how something that seems like such nonsense to me makes sense to other people. i want to understand that thought process.
me too....me too
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:55 PM   #858
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Is it a thought process, or something deeper than what can be articulated?


that's why i'm asking.

it's completely foreign to me.

the only thing i can think of is that many parents don't want a gay child. and the think that the continued assimilation of gay people into society will make their children more likely to be gay.

it's preposterous, from every standpoint, but that's all i can think of.

INDY? please, weigh in at any time here.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:07 PM   #859
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We go to church every Sunday and I explained what the bible says and what our church says about marriage and my 9 year old said, "well, Fr. W---- must be wrong. If they're in love they should be able to get married. God would want them to be happy."

If only it were that simple....
You're obviously teaching them well.

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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
however, i am curious to know why this line of thought -- gays as a threat -- is resonant with some people. i want to understand how something that seems like such nonsense to me makes sense to other people. i want to understand that thought process.
I don't understand how people can rationalize their hatred by claiming that gays are a threat to families either, but I just wanted to say that you're not a threat to me or my parents' families. Hopefully, in the very near future, people will start to realize this and allow for equality.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:09 PM   #860
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that's why i'm asking.

it's completely foreign to me.

the only thing i can think of is that many parents don't want a gay child. and the think that the continued assimilation of gay people into society will make their children more likely to be gay.

it's preposterous, from every standpoint, but that's all i can think of.

INDY? please, weigh in at any time here.
In my personal opinion, gay marriage opponents are fearful of what the effects of allowing same-sex marriage will have on children. At the heart of the issue is the nature vs. nurture debate, where people believe that homosexuality is a choice rather than something you're born.

The following excerpt from that article INDY posted two pages back is quite telling, in my point of view:

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The people of California are deeply troubled by the idea of small children being taught about homosexuality in the schools without their parents’ knowledge or consent.
It's all about the children. Pu aside the preposterousness of homosexuality as part of the curriculum (we have many teachers on this board that will tell you the idea of children being taught homosexuality in schools—without parents' knowledge—is absurd) what people are fearful of is children eventually choosing to enter same-sex relationships.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:11 PM   #861
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FWIW

Sign the Re-open Proposition 8 for California Petition

Asking these people to explain why gays are a threat to families is like asking a KKK member why they hate non-whites

Logic just goes out the window, it's just bigotry.

Either that or they're just in the closet themselves and it's self-loathing.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:15 PM   #862
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so what i'm getting is that people think that their children can be influenced to "choose" being gay. and that this is one way of stopping said influence.

correct?
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:18 PM   #863
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so what i'm getting is that people think that their children can be influenced to "choose" being gay. and that this is one way of stopping said influence.

correct?


What I don't understand is that if same-sex marriage would supposedly influence kids to "become" gay, wouldn't heterosexual marriage have the same amount of influence?
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:19 PM   #864
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so what i'm getting is that people think that their children can be influenced to "choose" being gay. and that this is one way of stopping said influence.

correct?
In my humble opinion, yes. How else can it threaten families? If you're born gay, well that's the end of that debate, since two people of the same-sex getting married wouldn't have any effect whatsoever. But if homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, then this poses a problem, as the option of marrying a same-sex partner may entice people to go that route.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:24 PM   #865
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so what i'm getting is that people think that their children can be influenced to "choose" being gay. and that this is one way of stopping said influence.

correct?
No, I think their fear is that children will think it's OK if they ARE gay, obviously it's better to put them through years of denial and self-loathing, not to mention the ever-so-effective straightness-therapy programs.....
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:25 PM   #866
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i will say that a greater cultural acceptance of homosexuality particularly when i was a teenager through the 1990s did lead me to be more accepting of myself than i would have been had i been born decades earlier. i mean, coming out is a long, hard process, but it was certainly easier to do now than it would have been decades ago.

i suppose i might have even been more willing to work hard at being straight, and maybe dated more women, and maybe even married one.

because, hey, what a lucky girl that would have been, no?

is this what people want?

please, straights, everyone is so nice and supportive to me and of me in my life, help me out here. i don't know how you people *really* think and talk when i'm not around.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:26 PM   #867
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INDY will not be addressing any of your points, he's going to continue to state why it's great that Proposition 8 passed and post more articles that talk about the victory while ignoring the actual issue.

Nathan will not be addressing any of your points, he will simply quote them and say that it's complicated and that, if you used any language that insinuates he could be a bigot, you are in fact the bigot.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:26 PM   #868
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wow, how discouraging to know that the Prop passed, yet I am not surprised, half my neighborhood was covered in the yellow signs, and at every freeway entrance for the last week it seemed like there was an agglomeration of people parading with these signs. Uhhh, even my parents where so enraged at the thought of gays marrying, then again my mother is convinced that Obama is a Muslim and/or the Antichrist. Seriously, the last couple months have put into perspective how little in common I have with my family. When it was announced Obama won, I was overwhelmed with joy and a huge sigh of relief, even watching people's reactions in Harlem & Chicago made me emotional. But waking up the next day to learn that Prop 8 passed was such a crummy feeling, just the idea of a minority's rights being left for the majority to decide is enraging. especially having to argue with my boyfriend why it's wrong and his response being "why do you care if you're not gay?". Grrrrrrr, it's about rights, basic human rights, for people regardless of color, race, religion etc...Sad day for Californians.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:29 PM   #869
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wow, how discouraging to know that the Prop passed, yet I am not surprised, half my neighborhood was covered in the yellow signs, and at every freeway entrance for the last week it seemed like there was an agglomeration of people parading with these signs. Uhhh, even my parents where so enraged at the thought of gays marrying, then again my mother is convinced that Obama is a Muslim and/or the Antichrist. Seriously, the last couple months have put into perspective how little in common I


why? what were their arguments? what enraged your parents?

no judgments. i really want to know what was being said. i want to know the exact words.

i really do.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:30 PM   #870
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It's all about the children.
It's not about the children at all. It's about adults transferring their fears and ignorance. We've just recently "outed" my sister-in-law to my daughters. So they have not grown up seeing gay couples all around them. But when we first discussed this with them, they never said anything other than "Oh, ok" and I bet any other child would say the same if the issue had never been addressed before and was treated as no big deal but just part of life.

It's the fear of adults that took the fun out of Halloween and turned it into Harvest Festivals at our school where kids can't wear costumes, it's adults who wanted the name of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays changed to the Rays. I'm probably rambling here, but I really don't think the issue is about what the children WILL think, it's what adults WANT them to think.

I don't think we'll ever be able to understand the pro prop 8 opinion, because it's based on a fear that we just don't share and will never understand.
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