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Old 11-04-2008, 06:18 PM   #571
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Same-sex marriage most certainly is.

But then again, relatively speaking, so are liberal democracies.

Civil unions (equivalent to marriage in all but name) seems to me a reasonable compromise between religion values and postmodernism -- tradition and individual rights.
There shouldn't be a compromise of religious values in the law, it is an issue of equal protection and the state not elevating one form of consensual relationship between two people above others, it doesn't open the door to polygamy. That doesn't seem to matter to you, ask if it is the role of government to arbitrate on the legitimacy of gay relationships?
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Old 11-04-2008, 06:26 PM   #572
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I am so nervous about this, and I am pretty sure that by the time I start work at 7am, not to return online until 5pm, we won't know anything about the result. (keep in mind i'm on european time.)
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Old 11-04-2008, 06:50 PM   #573
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I feel that offending bigots is a valuable tool, in terms of winning hearts and minds perhaps driving reactionaries to expose their stupidity can sway more clear headed undecided individuals than moderate and considered arguments which are frankly wasted on haters.

I know you think that, but I think you're wrong. Not least because you may misjudge someone as a reactionary and a hater when in fact they're not, and thus alienate them rather than win them over. I'm arguing that most people don't fall into the category of hard-core idealogue and can be convinced, but not by being insulted. You're sharp guy--a lot smarter than me, I'd say--but you're gauge of human nature is sometimes a little off.
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Old 11-04-2008, 06:55 PM   #574
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i am nervous. has anybody heard anything vaguely reliable lately about polls?
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Old 11-04-2008, 06:57 PM   #575
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It's only 4 o'clock here. There are 4 more hours till the polls close.
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Old 11-04-2008, 07:01 PM   #576
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I know you think that, but I think you're wrong. Not least because you may misjudge someone as a reactionary and a hater when in fact they're not, and thus alienate them rather than win them over. I'm arguing that most people don't fall into the category of hard-core idealogue and can be convinced, but not by being insulted. You're sharp guy--a lot smarter than me, I'd say--but you're gauge of human nature is sometimes a little off.
If you can get support over 50%, even if it means alienating a large minority, that seems fine by the numbers.
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Old 11-04-2008, 08:35 PM   #577
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If you can get support over 50%, even if it means alienating a large minority, that seems fine by the numbers.
Well, we'll see what happens in California. But when it's this close you don't want to be alienating people who might change their minds by ridiculing them.
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Old 11-04-2008, 09:30 PM   #578
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Why does one set of ppl take it upon themselves that another set has to hyphenate a word, as in gay-marriage.

Marriage has a meaning.
Civil Unions have a meaning.

Both include and have the same status.

Next case.

<>
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Old 11-04-2008, 10:09 PM   #579
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Why does one set of ppl take it upon themselves that another set has to hyphenate a word, as in gay-marriage.


<>
There is no hyphen in gay marriage.

Just like there's not in interracial marriage.
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Old 11-04-2008, 10:18 PM   #580
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Fine, an adjective isn't needed before the word-it connotes a sacrament between 2 parties of the opposite sex.

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Old 11-04-2008, 10:23 PM   #581
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Can straight people get a civil union?
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Old 11-04-2008, 10:42 PM   #582
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does anyone have any info on this? any californians have a local website to recommend?
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:16 PM   #583
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Fine, an adjective isn't needed before the word-it connotes a sacrament between 2 parties of the opposite sex.

<>
Narrow minded view that disrespects a segment of the population.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:21 PM   #584
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does anyone have any info on this? any californians have a local website to recommend?
I just checked at cbs2.com - Election Results and all they had was the two percent most likely absentee (read: conservative) votes. Yes was ahead, but the polls only closed 20 minutes ago.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:22 PM   #585
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Fine, an adjective isn't needed before the word-it connotes a sacrament between 2 parties of the opposite sex.
Then we can settle on just using the word marriage for something so joyous and special.
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