SPLIT--> California's Proposition 8 on Same-Sex Marriage - Page 37 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-03-2008, 09:33 PM   #541
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 05:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
That only works if you believe that coddling these people and allowing special leeway for their religious bigotry is going to magically transform them. I don't believe that is the case, so we may as well call a spade a spade.
I'm not arguing for coddling or allowing special leeway for anyone's bigotry. There is a big, and I believe, important, difference between calling someone's ideas bad and calling the person bad. What you're suggesting is that some people's minds can't be changed--and I think that is true--but there are many whose minds CAN be changed and calling them bigots won't help.

Look, I used to have what I would now classify as bigoted ideas about homosexuality. I changed. It wasn't because someone called a spade a spade. It was because of some personal experiences with people I care for deeply who are gay, because I realized that intellectually what I believed just wasn't adding up with what I was experiencing, and not least because Melon (someone who has been very clear about his impatience with homophobia in our society) took the time to understand my viewpoint as theologically conservative Christian and showed how someone like me could rectify an unbigoted view of homosexuality with scripture. Call it coddling if you want, but it worked.
__________________

__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 11-03-2008, 09:41 PM   #542
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,289
Local Time: 05:44 PM
Good for you, Sean. I'm happy that you have moved forward and feel better about your positions today. But do you think that when you had bigoted ideas, you would have donated your money, time and encouraged your church to participate in aggressive action to codify this bigotry?

A couple of years ago, I went to a talk given by the lawyer who basically got gay marriage legalized in Canada. It is a woman who worked on this for over 2 decades, and said that she quickly realized that change doesn't come overnight. So they basically eroded the bigotry by targeting smaller, individual issues like health insurance, employment standards, custody issues, and so on until such a point where there was pretty much no difference left and then gay marriage was passed by the courts. So that may support what you are saying here. But I also remember her saying that she quickly realized that working with the die-hard right which was pouring immense amounts of time, money and personnel in fighting this was a complete and utter waste of time. These people were not going to change and the only real thing that you could do was to completely marginalize them and then frankly politely wait for them to die out. And guess what? It happened. They are now such a fringe that the Conservative government has declared the issue closed and muzzles all MPs running in an election, preventing them from even bringing this topic up. And time, a friend of ours, has changed the polling completely.

So what you are talking about may be true for some "soft" bigotry in the middle, but this kind of devotion shown by diamond, shown by the Mormon Church and whatever other Church organizations are doing it, that can't be overcome and history shows it.
__________________

__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 11-03-2008, 10:02 PM   #543
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 05:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
Good for you, Sean. I'm happy that you have moved forward and feel better about your positions today. But do you think that when you had bigoted ideas, you would have donated your money, time and encouraged your church to participate in aggressive action to codify this bigotry?

A couple of years ago, I went to a talk given by the lawyer who basically got gay marriage legalized in Canada. It is a woman who worked on this for over 2 decades, and said that she quickly realized that change doesn't come overnight. So they basically eroded the bigotry by targeting smaller, individual issues like health insurance, employment standards, custody issues, and so on until such a point where there was pretty much no difference left and then gay marriage was passed by the courts. So that may support what you are saying here. But I also remember her saying that she quickly realized that working with the die-hard right which was pouring immense amounts of time, money and personnel in fighting this was a complete and utter waste of time. These people were not going to change and the only real thing that you could do was to completely marginalize them and then frankly politely wait for them to die out. And guess what? It happened. They are now such a fringe that the Conservative government has declared the issue closed and muzzles all MPs running in an election, preventing them from even bringing this topic up. And time, a friend of ours, has changed the polling completely.

So what you are talking about may be true for some "soft" bigotry in the middle, but this kind of devotion shown by diamond, shown by the Mormon Church and whatever other Church organizations are doing it, that can't be overcome and history shows it.
Sorry it's taking me so long to reply. Its hard to post with a baby in your arms. Can you hold him for me?

. . .okay I put him down. He'll be crying in seconds so I'll make this quick.

You're right I wouldn't have time and money or encouraged aggressive action on the issue. But then my church generally avoids involvement in politics period. I might have voted yes on Prop 8.

I think your points are good ones. I would not suggest trying to change the hard-core idealogues. What I'm saying is that these people are not the majority. They motivate the majority. They manipulate the majority. But I think most people are not actual hard core idealogues and they CAN change.
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 11-03-2008, 10:04 PM   #544
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,289
Local Time: 05:44 PM
I'd babysit that lovely offspring of yours for free anytime! When you get back on the mainland, we'll be close enough to facilitate such things.
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 11-03-2008, 10:12 PM   #545
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 11:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
But I also remember her saying that she quickly realized that working with the die-hard right which was pouring immense amounts of time, money and personnel in fighting this was a complete and utter waste of time. These people were not going to change and the only real thing that you could do was to completely marginalize them and then frankly politely wait for them to die out.
I agree with this, but you do have to be wary of fallout from prematurely marginalizing people when there's still strong popular inclination to agree with whatever measure(s) they're specifically supporting at the time. It's much easier to get people to reject those who seem overtly and viciously contemptuous, who freely use slurs and wax hysterical and seem hungry to demonize and persecute, than it is to get them to reject those who present themselves as humbly committed to an ideal.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 11-03-2008, 10:22 PM   #546
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post

Look, I used to have what I would now classify as bigoted ideas about homosexuality. I changed. It wasn't because someone called a spade a spade. It was because of some personal experiences with people I care for deeply who are gay, because I realized that intellectually what I believed just wasn't adding up with what I was experiencing, and not least because Melon (someone who has been very clear about his impatience with homophobia in our society) took the time to understand my viewpoint as theologically conservative Christian and showed how someone like me could rectify an unbigoted view of homosexuality with scripture. Call it coddling if you want, but it worked.
I was raised in an environment with bias or bigoted thinking.

And like you,
it was through my associations with some of these "others" that caused me to throw out much of my bias thinking.

We all have bias thinking.
It is only when we can identify it that we are able to discard some of it.
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 11-03-2008, 10:31 PM   #547
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
I would not suggest trying to change the hard-core idealogues. What I'm saying is that these people are not the majority. They motivate the majority. They manipulate the majority. But I think most people are not actual hard core idealogues and they CAN change.
How do you think these people will ever change their wrong thinking?


It is my opinion that one can have a civil discussion with them showing common courtesy and even respect.


Through these conversations, one is able to cause the wrong thinking person to at least consider another point of view.


And that is how it begins.

A bigoted Sean has a conversation with a respectful, clear thinking Melon.

End result, bigoted Sean discards wrong thinking.

and at this point,
Sean (and deep) wonders what other bad thinking may need to be discarded.
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 11-03-2008, 10:45 PM   #548
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 05:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deep View Post
How do you think these people will ever change their wrong thinking?


It is my opinion that one can have a civil discussion with them showing common courtesy and even respect.


Through these conversations, one is able to cause the wrong thinking person to at least consider another point of view.
Exactly my point.




Quote:
Originally Posted by deep View Post
and at this point,
Sean (and deep) wonders what other bad thinking may need to be discarded.
Nope, actually, I think that pretty much cleared it up for me...
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 11-03-2008, 10:58 PM   #549
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
Nope, actually, I think that pretty much cleared it up for me...

yes,

but before you discarded anti-gay thinking
you most likely thought you were on sound ground "loving the sinner and hating the sin"

I often times ask myself why I believe what I believe

'conventional wisdom'
'group associations that require group thinking'
'traditional thinking'


there is correct and wrong thinking


assuming it is correct because of where it originated is very dangerous.
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 11-03-2008, 11:02 PM   #550
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,488
Local Time: 05:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yolland View Post
those who present themselves as humbly committed to an ideal.


i think some use this as a tactic.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 11-04-2008, 01:19 AM   #551
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 11:44 PM
Sure, it can be, but it's a pretty effective one.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 11-04-2008, 03:11 AM   #552
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 05:44 PM
[QUOTE=deep;5585045]yes,

but before you discarded anti-gay thinking
you most likely thought you were on sound ground "loving the sinner and hating the sin"

QUOTE]

Actually, I don't think I thought about it much--didn't have to, as a kid, since even as recently as that homosexuality was still very much in the closet, and I certainly don't recall ever "hating" any sins. Like a lot of people I probably based my views on not a lot of thought and very little experience. Furthermore, I wouldn't say I woke up one day and "discarded" anti-gay thinking. I certainly never thought of myself as "anti-gay" and I'll go even further and say I don't think I WAS anti-gay. My views were based mostly on lack of exposure and assumptions, and the change was a gradual one over time. Again, I didn't wake up one day, slap my head, and say, "Well, dangit. . all these years I've been a hate-filled bigot and didn't even know it."

By the time I got married, I recall thinking about a good friend of my wife's who attended the wedding that I hoped he never asked my views on the morality of homosexuality as I would never want to hurt him.

Several years ago my wife's best friend revealed that she was gay and that changed things yet again. Also, we got to be good friends with a lesbian couple here in Saipan. Change yet again. I had several gay students over the years, change again. And then just before the summer where Melon and I had that fateful exchange of ideas, a student of mine who I'd long believed was gay wrote for his final essay a composition essay that broke my heart--it was really a letter to me, I think more than anything. One of the things that really moved me was this young man's expressed conviction that even if no one else accepted him, he knew that God did--which really blew my mind as he'd never seemed particularly interested in spirituality. By that time, the structure of my old worldview was teetering, and Melon's arguments were a mere breeze that blew the whole thing over.
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 11-04-2008, 05:21 AM   #553
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 08:44 AM
I feel that offending bigots is a valuable tool, in terms of winning hearts and minds perhaps driving reactionaries to expose their stupidity can sway more clear headed undecided individuals than moderate and considered arguments which are frankly wasted on haters.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 11-04-2008, 06:14 AM   #554
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 05:44 PM
As an aside, I haven't paid attention to the poll numbers on this thing probably because I'm not in California, so there's nothing I can do about it; but, frankly, I think I'm too afraid to find out. California doesn't seem to have a great track record when it comes to voting down embarrassing ballot initiatives.
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 11-04-2008, 07:07 AM   #555
Blue Crack Addict
 
Varitek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: on borderland we run
Posts: 16,861
Local Time: 05:44 PM
ballot initiative 4 in CA is pretty crappy too.

Although I'm getting a little calmer about the presidential election results, I'm really jittery about some of these ballot initiatives out there.
__________________

__________________
Varitek is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com