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Old 09-27-2008, 11:52 PM   #31
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firstly, my people were tossed into the ovens, which is where we get the pink triangle.

secondly, it is legal to fire my people in many states and deny them housing on the basis of sexual orientation. it is illegal in FL to adopt children. and, as we know, it is illegal to be married except in MA or CA.

i wonder how you'd feel coming over here 100 some odd years ago to "No Irish" signs in various places of employment. it's kind of like that.

and i challenge you to find a group as discriminated against on a worldwide level as violently as homosexuals. we face execution in many countries in Africa and the Middle East.

Well, I think that this speaks to the classic difference between the liberal and the conservative way of looking at the world.

Conservatives - and on this I agree with them - tend to be sceptical of sectional gender/race/sexuality politics, because they think it divides people and is bad for society.
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Old 09-27-2008, 11:57 PM   #32
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Well, I think that this speaks to the classic difference between the liberal and the conservative way of looking at the world.

Conservatives - and on this I agree with them - tend to be sceptical of sectional gender/race/sexuality politics, because they think it divides people and is bad for society.


this misses the point.

what we're talking about is not putting civil rights up to a vote. if we had voted on whether or not to allow interracial marriage in Virginia in 1967 or to integrate the schools after 1956, just what do you think "the people" would have chosen? what do you think would have happened if the citizens of 19th century New York had been asked to put their ability to discriminate against Irish in employment to the vote? after all, you couldn't trust them, Bridget and Paddy were always drunk, always fighting, not good for business. it is absolutely the right of good Protestant business owners to determine who does and who does not work for them, and it's just too much of a risk to hire Irish given their past track record.

or, do we agree that people have basic rights regardless of whatever differences there are, that sexual orientation is as immutable and unchosen a human characteristic as race and gender, and can be demonstrated that it is entirely harmless and in fact the only harm that is done in regards to sexual orientation are those that are discriminated against on the basis of it, and thusly, we seek to protect those in the minority from the prejudices of the majority, that everyone is equal in the eyes of the law regardless of what the masses of bigots might think.
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Old 09-28-2008, 12:11 AM   #33
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this misses the point.
It precisely addresses the point. As I see it, we are talking about an ideological distinction between statism and liberty. And I'll explain what I mean.

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what we're talking about is not putting civil rights up to a vote. if we had voted on whether or not to allow interracial marriage in Virginia in 1967 or to integrate the schools after 1956, just what do you think "the people" would have chosen? what do you think would have happened if the citizens of 19th century New York had been asked to put their ability to discriminate against Irish in employment to the vote? after all, you couldn't trust them, Bridget and Paddy were always drunk, always fighting, not good for business. it is absolutely the right of good Protestant business owners to determine who does and who does not work for them, and it's just too much of a risk to hire Irish given their past track record.

I disagree fundamentally with employment (so-called) 'anti-discrimination' legislation. So, for the sake of argument, I simply do not agree that these Protestant business owners should have been legally compelled to employ Irish workers against their will (i.e., the will of the Protestant business owners).

After all, it is, or rather was, THEIR businesses. Or, alternatively, I do not agree that Irish Catholic business owners should be, or should have been, legally compelled to employ WASP's. You as a liberal presumably disagree with this approach. And that's fine.

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or, do we agree that people have basic rights regardless of whatever differences there are, that sexual orientation is as immutable and unchosen a human characteristic as race and gender, and can be demonstrated that it is entirely harmless and in fact the only harm that is done in regards to sexual orientation are those that are discriminated against on the basis of it, and thusly, we seek to protect those in the minority from the prejudices of the majority, that everyone is equal in the eyes of the law regardless of what the masses of bigots might think.
You can't legislate against bigotry. You might want to, but it's pointless, counterproductive and anti liberty (and I know I might be coming across a little Ayn Randian here).

I have the right to life, and freedom of expression, and to give my labour freely.

I do not have the right to compel an unwilling employer to employ me.

Do you think a gay nightclub should be compelled, against its will, to employ heterosexuals to fulfil an equality quota? Let's say the nightclub has 50 staff, and is required to employ at least 50% heteros.

What if said nightclub is situated in a very conservative state or country? What if it can't find any non-homophobic heterosexuals? Is it right for the state to COMPEL them to employ homophobic bigots? What then?
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Old 09-28-2008, 01:14 AM   #34
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You can't legislate against bigotry. You might want to, but it's pointless, counterproductive and anti liberty (and I know I might be coming across a little Ayn Randian here).

except that you can. i'm going to assume that you're not actually advocating for Jim Crow laws, and what you're trying to say is that you can't make people like each other. that's absolutely true. but you can pass laws that make it impossible for people to discriminate in cases of legal rights on the basis of bigotry.

so what we're saying is that it's not that someone must hire Irish, but that they can be penalized if the deliberately do not hire Irish (and it's a rather tough thing to prove, legally). now if you want to talk quotas, that's something else, but again, as i said, this misses the point. we've gone onto a tangent about same-sex marriage. barring gay people from marrying is no different, in structure or intent, than was the barring of black students from white schools.
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Old 09-28-2008, 01:34 AM   #35
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Ellen and Portia got married a few weeks ago. As a straight woman, my liberty hasn't been snuffed out yet, but I'm still watching my back.
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Old 09-28-2008, 12:31 PM   #36
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the logic behind denying basic civil rights to people on the basis of being gay is NO DIFFERENT than denying basic civil rights on the basis of skin color.
I would agree if we were talking about equal protection. But I don't think we are.

Anti-miscegenation laws clearly did although, unfortunately, it wasn't seen that way until 50 years ago. So if homosexuals (who have suffered civil rights abuses) were not being allowed to marry -- period -- that would without question be another civil rights violation. But same-sex activists seek a right never possessed by anyone, anywhere at anytime. The right to marry members of your own sex. Marriage has changed over the past 1500 years but always, always, even in polygamy marriages (which do at least have a history), it was a bonding of a male and a female.
I don't begrudge gay people (who even in a mean country like America teeming with homophobes) have found increasing acceptance from taking the next step and seeking legally recognized marriage as it's not without it's merits. But I do resent how it's being done (through judicial activism rather than democratic means, denigrating religious morals and slandering same-sex marriage opponents as modern-day Bull Connors.)

Which brings me to my other point about an earlier post of yours.
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the citizens of CA are going to vote, and they are going to reject it.
it's still offensive in the extreme. should they have voted to allow African-Americans to attend the University of Alabama?
There's that false analogy again !!

Weren't we told during the Federal Marriage Amendment debate that we shouldn't "federalize" the issue, that it "should be left to the states to decide"? Can't I go back and quote you making that argument?
But isn't that exactly what California is now doing? So why is that now so "offensive in the extreme"?

Maybe because by "decide" what you really meant was "have it decided for them by a handful of lawyers in robes."
That's how I lose my liberty.
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Old 09-28-2008, 01:04 PM   #37
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Maybe because by "decide" what you really meant was "have it decided for them by a handful of lawyers in robes."
That's how I lose my liberty.
Exactly how, again, does allowing gays to marry diminish your liberty?
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Old 09-28-2008, 01:15 PM   #38
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It's a tad more than a legal contract. Marriage is the foundation of society thus changing it's definition will radically change society. Who would argue that no-fault divorce and single parent households haven't done just that?
States have legitimate reasons for defining marriage. And in a democracy, the people have every expectation of being able to decide the nature of their community so long as they respect truly protected rights.

Any definition of marriage will include some people while excluding others. Including yours. But most importantly, if that definition is to change than it should be because the will of the people wishes it to.
You say it would radically change society. How do you know? Since marriage has always been between a man and a woman, how do we have ANY CLUE how homosexual marriages would 'radically change society'? What is the frame of reference? There is none. There is no proof of this. It is speculation.

Also, it is hard for me to imagine a time in which homosexuals outnumber heterosexuals, so even if gay marriage is legal nationwide, homosexual marriages are always going to be a sizable minority of marriages. I fail to see how that is going to 'radically change society'.
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Old 09-28-2008, 01:24 PM   #39
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Exactly how, again, does allowing gays to marry diminish your liberty?
By subverting both the legislative process and the will of the people through judicial manufacture of "bogus" constitutional rights.
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Old 09-28-2008, 01:29 PM   #40
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By subverting both the legislative process and the will of the people through judicial manufacture of "bogus" constitutional rights.
If someone stated that they thought federal laws about race were "bogus" and that their rights were being taken away because of it, would you agree?
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Old 09-28-2008, 01:31 PM   #41
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By subverting both the legislative process and the will of the people through judicial manufacture of "bogus" constitutional rights.
Was women's suffrage a bogus right? After all, they never had it before, there was no precedent for it in our country. Was equal protection for African Americans a bogus right? They'd never had it before - no precedent for it in our country.

But lookout. If gays want to enter into a relationship with all the same legal rights as a heterosexual one, it's some cooked up bogus right.

Telling.
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Old 09-28-2008, 02:55 PM   #42
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Anti-miscegenation laws clearly did although, unfortunately, it wasn't seen that way until 50 years ago. So if homosexuals (who have suffered civil rights abuses) were not being allowed to marry -- period -- that would without question be another civil rights violation. But same-sex activists seek a right never possessed by anyone, anywhere at anytime. The right to marry members of your own sex.

and blacks could just shut up and marry other blacks. whites other whites. asians other asians. jews other jews.


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Marriage has changed over the past 1500 years but always, always, even in polygamy marriages (which do at least have a history), it was a bonding of a male and a female.
and adult men used to be able to marry children. there is a clear change in how we fundamentally understand homosexuality that exists today in a way that it didn't 100 years ago.


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I don't begrudge gay people (who even in a mean country like America teeming with homophobes) have found increasing acceptance from taking the next step and seeking legally recognized marriage as it's not without it's merits. But I do resent how it's being done (through judicial activism rather than democratic means, denigrating religious morals and slandering same-sex marriage opponents as modern-day Bull Connors.)
but that's how you're going to be remembered. and, again, when did we put desegregation up for vote?



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Which brings me to my other point about an earlier post of yours.

There's that false analogy again !!

Weren't we told during the Federal Marriage Amendment debate that we shouldn't "federalize" the issue, that it "should be left to the states to decide"? Can't I go back and quote you making that argument?
But isn't that exactly what California is now doing? So why is that now so "offensive in the extreme"?

Maybe because by "decide" what you really meant was "have it decided for them by a handful of lawyers in robes."
That's how I lose my liberty.

firstly, what "we" were told is different from what i'm telling you. the whole "don't federalize" and "let the states decide" was a distraction from the actual issue at hand and a way for Republicans like, say, John McCain who really don't give a shit one way or the next about this issue some cover so they could vote against the amendment and not look like they were going to preside over Ellen and Portia's marriage.

what is offensive in the extreme is that you get to vote on whether or not i get to be treated as your equal.

but now, jumping off from that basic point, because i know what kind of a world we live in, it does seem that from a strategic point of view, it does make sense to let the states "decide" in the sense that it doesn't make much sense for MS and CA to have to live by the same laws all of the time.

and, i'll state it again -- there is a clear, direct analogy between desegregation and marriage equality. blacks had their colleges, why did they have to go to the University of Alabama?
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Old 09-28-2008, 02:58 PM   #43
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You say it would radically change society. How do you know? Since marriage has always been between a man and a woman, how do we have ANY CLUE how homosexual marriages would 'radically change society'? What is the frame of reference? There is none. There is no proof of this. It is speculation.


Massachusetts -- with it's excellent public schools, best universities on the planet, and lowest divorce rate in the country -- seems to be doing just fine.

California is thrilled to have such a boost to their economy.

Canada, however ... it is tragic what's happened up there due to gay marriage. we should just rename it North Tragikistan.
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Old 09-28-2008, 02:59 PM   #44
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By subverting both the legislative process and the will of the people through judicial manufacture of "bogus" constitutional rights.


like the bogus right to be able to marry the person of your choice, even if they are of a different race than you.
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Old 09-28-2008, 03:01 PM   #45
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Canada, however ... it is tragic what's happened up there due to gay marriage. we should just rename it North Tragikistan.
Dude, it's bad out there. What with the collapse of our society and all, I've taken to hiding in my house.
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