SPLIT--> California's Proposition 8 on Same-Sex Marriage

[BVS]

I guess at the end of the day the whole issue comes down to a simple matter of dignity. From what I've heard from those opposed to it, they really don't have any idea what dignity really is - they don't know how dignity feels so they cannot grasp the desire to feel dignified. They will say they do, and they probably honestly believe they do, but they don't. Dignity is inner strength, compassion and courage. Bigotry is weakness, anger, fear, and ignorance. That shit leads to the dark side, Luke.

I admit sometimes it's hard to take you seriously, but I always enjoy your posts.

But this one in paticular is spot on.

 

[BoMac]

I guess at the end of the day the whole issue comes down to a simple matter of dignity. From what I've heard from those opposed to it, they really don't have any idea what dignity really is - they don't know how dignity feels so they cannot grasp the desire to feel dignified. They will say they do, and they probably honestly believe they do, but they don't. Dignity is inner strength, compassion and courage. Bigotry is weakness, anger, fear, and ignorance. That shit leads to the dark side, Luke.

Beav, as much as I love the Habs—and you know I do!—I'm requesting your permission to include this in my signature in place of what I have now. It's just too good.

 

[yolland]

i disagree.

let's put it to a vote!

Who are you to disagree with millennia of human history, during which the composition of families has always been determined solely by ongoing rigorous evaluation of what promotes optimum psychological development for children, and during which various blind alleys like same-sex parenting were duly tried and found wanting? It's not like it was ever about protecting dependent mothers from irresponsible fathers, or consolidation of property or anything like that. Next thing I know, you'll be trying to tell me I got married for any further reason than pure, self-sacrificing willingness to nurture the next generation...sheesh.

 

[INDY500]

In the words of Bill Hicks, "Sleep tight."

Bill Hicks named one of his CDs "Arizona Bay," that's what he thought of California.

I often wonder what he'd be doing today given that his anti-GOP/anti-Bush (41)/anti-Christian act that was so "edgy" back in 1991 now accounts for 99% of political humor today.
He wasn't one to run with the pack. I could see him having several fatwas issued on his life by now.

Shame that he's gone.

 

[INDY500]

Chalk talk with INDY500.

Americans believe in self-determination. So you might stop trying to push societal change through the courts.

Americans outside of Chicago don't like political intimidation. So you might stop labeling all your opponents as "haters."

Americans believe in secular government but a religious populace. So you might stop denigrating beliefs derived from religion.

Americans believe anything originating in Canada to be highly suspect. So you might stop trotting them out as "the way things should be."

And Americans don't like whiney-ass losers. So you might knock that off as well.

Now if you're tired of losing over and over you might, oh I don't know, TRY A DIFFERENT GAME PLAN.

 

[phillyfan26]

 

[melon]

Chalk talk with INDY500.

Americans believe in self-determination. So you might stop trying to push societal change through the courts.

Americans outside of Chicago don't like political intimidation. So you might stop labeling all your opponents as "haters."

Americans believe in secular government but a religious populace. So you might stop denigrating beliefs derived from religion.

Americans believe anything originating in Canada to be highly suspect. So you might stop trotting them out as "the way things should be."

And Americans don't like whiney-ass losers. So you might knock that off as well.

Now if you're tired of losing over and over you might, oh I don't know, TRY A DIFFERENT GAME PLAN.

 

[UberBeaver]

Beav, as much as I love the Habs—and you know I do!—I'm requesting your permission to include this in my signature in place of what I have now. It's just too good.

Give us Plekanic and it's a deal.

 

[indra]

I guess at the end of the day the whole issue comes down to a simple matter of dignity. From what I've heard from those opposed to it, they really don't have any idea what dignity really is - they don't know how dignity feels so they cannot grasp the desire to feel dignified. They will say they do, and they probably honestly believe they do, but they don't. Dignity is inner strength, compassion and courage. Bigotry is weakness, anger, fear, and ignorance. That shit leads to the dark side, Luke.

Damn. That's a great summation.

 

[BVS]

Chalk talk with INDY500.
Americans believe in self-determination. So you might stop trying to push societal change through the courts.

Oh the irony...

Chalk talk with INDY500.
Americans outside of Chicago don't like political intimidation. So you might stop labeling all your opponents as "haters."

But labeling them godless or immoral is fine.

Chalk talk with INDY500.
Americans believe in secular government but a religious populace. So you might stop denigrating beliefs derived from religion.

Your party had a man running for president that said the Constitution should be changed to be more like the Bible. Many of you don't even understand what a secular government is...

Chalk talk with INDY500.
Americans believe anything originating in Canada to be highly suspect. So you might stop trotting them out as "the way things should be."

Meh, this one's just dumb.

Chalk talk with INDY500.
And Americans don't like whiney-ass losers. So you might knock that off as well.

The irony get thicker and thicker... Your party is booing the president elect and whiny about "socialism". You're constantly whiny about how the media doesn't like you guys, they don't like your anti-science stances, they're waging war on Christmas... don't talk to me about whiners.

Chalk talk with INDY500.
Now if you're tired of losing over and over you might, oh I don't know, TRY A DIFFERENT GAME PLAN.

Mark my words, you always have and always will be on the wrong side of history when it comes to social issues...

 

[Irvine511]

Who are you to disagree with millennia of human history, during which the composition of families has always been determined solely by ongoing rigorous evaluation of what promotes optimum psychological development for children, and during which various blind alleys like same-sex parenting were duly tried and found wanting? It's not like it was ever about protecting dependent mothers from irresponsible fathers, or consolidation of property or anything like that. Next thing I know, you'll be trying to tell me I got married for any further reason than pure, self-sacrificing willingness to nurture the next generation...sheesh.

curses! defeated by empiricism, biology, and plain old common sense again.

 

[Irvine511]

Chalk talk with INDY500.

Americans believe in self-determination. So you might stop trying to push societal change through the courts.

Americans outside of Chicago don't like political intimidation. So you might stop labeling all your opponents as "haters."

Americans believe in secular government but a religious populace. So you might stop denigrating beliefs derived from religion.

Americans believe anything originating in Canada to be highly suspect. So you might stop trotting them out as "the way things should be."

And Americans don't like whiney-ass losers. So you might knock that off as well.

Now if you're tired of losing over and over you might, oh I don't know, TRY A DIFFERENT GAME PLAN.

you realize this post does exactly what you're accusing the other side of doing.

 

[anitram]

Oh goody, more Canada bashing this morning.

This is becoming a daily affair here at FYM. Good job, guys.

 

[toscano]

Chalk talk with INDY500.
So you might stop denigrating beliefs derived from religion.

Republicans' last-ditch game plan pretty much was "he's a MUSLIM!!!!"

I guess religion is OK as long as it's YOUR religion ?

Does the far right's bigotry know no bounds ?

 

[U2isthebest]

I just saw the victory party of a bunch of pastors after Prop. 8 passed. It makes me ashamed to call myself a Christian alongside these bigots.

Word to Christian Prop. 8 supporters
It must make you fuckers feel really big that people are going to be denied rights based on whether they fit into your circle of right-wing, white, straight, exclusivity I bet this is how white Southerners felt when Jim Crow laws were established. Enjoy that thought you ignorant idiots. I understand, though, you're just taking dominion over the earth right, like God said? You figure He's not big enough? You'll talk for hours about how an obscure passage in Romans (that, when you study the text and history around it is talking about young boys being used as sex slaves by older, male priests in Greek and Roman temples) and how it should be used to deny rights to an entire group of Americans, but all that talk on the Sermon on the Mount, all that talk in the Books of the Prophets about righteousness, justice, and equality, that can be explained away, can't it? You make me sick, and you're a slap in the face to the Jesus you say you're doing this for. One day, my children and grandchildren will look back on this group of Christians and think this was as wrong and ridiculous as the churches in the south who refused to let black people in before the Civil Rights movement.

 

[melon]

You'll talk for hours about how an obscure passage in Romans (that, when you study the text and history around it is talking about young boys being used as sex slaves by older, male priests in Greek and Roman temples)

Yup. Even my mainstream Catholic Bible, which, as a whole, values footnotes to keep things in context, generally says so too. I also love how Romans 2:1 is always omitted also, which basically states that the previous "judgments" in Romans 1 are really admonishments against his reader against judgment! The Pauline epistles require a bit more intellectual vigor and analysis than today's average Biblical reader wishes to give them, and that's where we get into so much trouble.

 

[U2isthebest]

Yup. Even my mainstream Catholic Bible, which, as a whole, values footnotes to keep things in context, generally says so too. I also love how Romans 2:1 is always omitted also, which basically states that the previous "judgments" in Romans 1 are really admonishments against his reader against judgment! The Pauline epistles require a bit more intellectual vigor and analysis than today's average Biblical reader wishes to give them, and that's where we get into so much trouble.

Most real study of the Bible take much more intellect than most Christians are willing to give it. Of course, many Christians are afraid of intelligence and rational thought, so it's not surprising. Clearly, God didn't give us the capacity for reason and intellect, so we'd actually use it.

 

[Diemen]

Word to Christian Prop. 8 supporters
It must make you fuckers... you ignorant idiots.

The point can be made without resorting to name calling.

 

[Irvine511]

guys, come on. we all know that people don't object to gay people, they just object to judicial activism.

there's no homophobia at all in striping rights from a deliberately targeted group of people and harming their children.

we've got to send those judges a message!

 

[BoMac]

Give us Plekanic and it's a deal.

NO.

 

[namkcuR]

'Rights groups challenge new gay-marriage ban
Ask state court to invalidate voter-approved measure in California'

Gay-rights advocates went to court Wednesday to press for same-sex marriages a day after California voters dealt them a stunning setback by approving a ban on such unions.
The constitutional amendment approved Tuesday will limit marriage to heterosexual couples, the first time such a vote has taken place in a state where gay unions are legal.
Proposition 8 overturns a state Supreme Court decision in May that gave gay couples the right to wed and creates uncertainty about the legal status of 18,000 same-sex couples who have tied the knot since then.
Even as the last votes were being counted Wednesday, the American Civil Liberties Union and other opponents filed a challenge with the state Supreme Court.
They contend that California's ballot cannot be used to undermine one group's access to rights enjoyed by other citizens.
They argue that initiatives that make "fundamental" changes to core principles of the state constitution must first be approved by the state Legislature, then sent to voters for passage.
Gay-rights advocates in a state so often at the forefront of liberal social change say the fight is only beginning.
"We pick ourselves up and trudge on," Kate Kendell, executive director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights, said early Wednesday when it appeared Proposition 8 was headed for passage. "There has been enormous movement in favor of full equality in eight short years. That is the direction this is heading, and if it's not today or it's not tomorrow, it will be soon."
"Star Trek" actor George Takei, who married his longtime boyfriend Brad Altman on Sept. 14, said the proposition "may be the basis for taking it to the Supreme Court of the United States."
Altman said no matter what happens, he'll never take off his wedding ring. He said his relationship with Takei will "live long and prosper."

It would be glorious if the courts overruled the proposition.

 

[u2gek]

I just saw the victory party of a bunch of pastors after Prop. 8 passed. It makes me ashamed to call myself a Christian alongside these bigots.

you're a slap in the face to the Jesus you say you're doing this for. One day, my children and grandchildren will look back on this group of Christians and think this was as wrong and ridiculous as the churches in the south who refused to let black people in before the Civil Rights movement.

Amen! (except for the profanity and name calling part)

 

[Irvine511]

so there's an interesting article in the NYT today detailing the triumph of hate and fear in CA, AZ, and FL. and the following is what blew my mind:

The victory of the social and religious conservatives came on a core issue that has defined their engagement in politics over the past decade.

The Rev. Joel Hunter, an evangelical pastor in Florida, said many religious conservatives felt more urgency about stopping same-sex marriage than about abortion, another hotly contested issue long locked in a stalemate.

“There is enough of the population that is alarmed at the general breakdown of the family, that has been so inundated with images of homosexual relationships in all of the media,” said Mr. Hunter, who gave the benediction at the Democratic National Convention this year, yet supported the same-sex marriage ban in his state. “It’s almost like it’s obligatory these days to have a homosexual couple in every TV show or every movie.”

Supporters of the bans in California, Arizona and Florida benefited from the donations and volunteers mobilized by a broad array of churches and religious groups from across the ethnic spectrum.

The Rev. Samuel Rodriguez, a pastor in Sacramento and president of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference, said the campaign to pass Proposition 8 had begun with white evangelical churches but had spread to more than 1,130 Hispanic churches whose pastors convinced their members that same-sex marriage threatened the traditional family.

“Without the Latino vote,” Mr. Rodriguez said, “Proposition 8 would never have succeeded.”

Frank Schubert, the campaign manager for Protect Marriage, the leading group behind Proposition 8, agreed that minority votes had put the measure over the top, saying that a strategy of working with conservative black pastors and community leaders had paid off.

“It’s a big reason why we won, no doubt about it,” he said.

so, again, let's put aside Nathan and INDY's arguments that this is about the "will of the people" or "judicial activism" or whatever else. we all know that's a canard on the national level, even if it might be a sincerely held belief by the two of them. it is clearly a way to sugar up discrimination, nothing more.

let's focus instead of the perceived threat of the existence of gay people to "families."

i don't understand this at all. how am i a threat to the family? how do i threaten any family? why is my existence so dangerous? what am i doing that's so wrong to you?

i need someone to explain this to me. right now. because i am thoroughly flummoxed.

i can see that the whole "threat to the family" is no different than the BS "judicial activism" or "will of the people" argument. that it's a way of presenting prejudice to the masses and making them feel okay about it. but why do people buy it? what is it out there about gay people that makes people believe that two men living together or two women living together somehow represent a threat to the very existence of society? on one hand, we hear people moaning about a tiny minority (5%) "redefining" marriage, and on the other hand, we hear about the incredible threat that said tiny minority presents to everyone, everywhere.

i need this explained to me.

 

[toscano]

i need this explained to me.

You will NEVER get that.

The bigots of the Latter Day KKK, the Holy Roman Heterosexual Pedophiles and the Evangelical Muslim Haters are just not capable of rationalizing their bigotry past the soundbite stage.

For what it's worth, we are a straight-family of 5 and you are NO THREAT to us. I consider the above groups more of a threat to my civil liberties than I do "you guys".

 

[UberBeaver]

NO.

OK, then you just go on record as being both a bigot and a homophobe.

 

[INDY500]

November 06, 2008
Winning Proposition
Marriage success.

By Jennifer Roback Morse


I can hardly believe the campaign for Proposition 8, the California Marriage Amendment, is over and that we won. I will miss the cheerful yellow signs with their happy blue family people on them.
Now that it is over, it is worthwhile to reflect on the significance of what the Protect Marriage coalition achieved. The people of California did not do anything rash or drastic here. They simply voted to enshrine the definition of natural marriage as one man and one woman in the state constitution.

What does this victory mean?

The people of California want to wrest control of the legal definition of marriage from the judiciary.

The people of California are deeply troubled by the idea of small children being taught about homosexuality in the schools without their parents’ knowledge or consent.

The people of California do not want dissenters from the gay-marriage ideology to be treated as if they were racists.

The people of California want religious groups to be free to operate within their own value systems. People don’t want to unleash discrimination suits and other forms of legal harassment against religious bodies which hold that marriage is between a man and a woman.

It doesn’t mean:

Over five million Californians are bigots.

Gay couples will have their homes raided, (contra the outrageous anti-Mormon advertisement.)

Gay couples will lose their domestic partnership benefits.

Gays are second-class citizens.

Why does the victory of Proposition 8 matter?

A coalition of ordinary people pushed back against the gay lobby and its allies. Those allies include all the major newspapers, Hollywood, the judiciary, the governor, the attorney general, and academia. These allies did not hesitate to abuse their power. For instance, Attorney General Jerry Brown rewrote the title of the proposition in a way that cost us 5 to 10 percentage points in the polls.

But Proposition 8 proponents got more than it bargained for: ordinary citizens are sick of being pushed around. They aren’t going to take it any more.

The coalition of religious groups who worked for Prop 8 will not dissolve the day after tomorrow. Passing Proposition 8 required an unprecedented level of interfaith cooperation. Evangelicals, Catholics, Mormons, and Jews all worked together. I could feel mistrust melting away as we worked together to protect natural marriage. The solidarity we created will continue long after this particular election.

Interracial solidarity was strong on the marriage issue. Blacks and Hispanics voted overwhelmingly for Prop 8. Los Angeles County voted for Prop 8. That wasn’t Hollywood and Beverly Hills talking: it was the urban minority communities. They don’t seem to feel the need to be politically correct. Pro-marriage advocates of all races met and worked together, and will continue to do so.

The public is much more aware of the promotion of homosexuality in the schools. People will be monitoring the content of school curriculum in a way they had not done before. And since they now have the experience of being successful cooperating with others and promoting their views in the public square, they are much less likely to back down. If the gay lobby could have contained itself and lain low for a little longer, they might have been able to slip a lot of things past the public. Those days are over.

The public was disgusted by the grotesque bullying tactics of the No on 8 coalition. Although the anti-Mormon ad was produced by an “independent” group, no one from the official campaign condemned the ad. The media gave very little attention to the vandalism against Yes, but publicized the few isolated incidents of vandalism against No. But this media spin can’t work when the incidents are happening in your own neighborhood, under your own noses, to people you know. The No campaign should have distanced itself from people who were keying cars, egging houses and spray painting graffiti on churches. But it didn’t.

In short, the success of Proposition 8 is the success of a broad-based coalition of citizen activists who cared passionately about the meaning and future of marriage. The Protect Marriage campaign had literally a hundred thousand volunteers and over 70,000 donors. What Proposition 13 meant to the cause of citizen-generated tax reduction measures, Proposition 8 may mean to the cause of defending and defining marriage.

The judges who created same-sex marriage awakened a sleeping giant. And we won’t be going back to sleep any time soon.

Sounds like I could have wrote this.

 

[martha]

could have written

 

[toscano]

Sounds like I could have wrote this.

Not with Grammar like that............

 

[Irvine511]

The public is much more aware of the promotion of homosexuality in the schools. People will be monitoring the content of school curriculum in a way they had not done before. And since they now have the experience of being successful cooperating with others and promoting their views in the public square, they are much less likely to back down. If the gay lobby could have contained itself and lain low for a little longer, they might have been able to slip a lot of things past the public. Those days are over.

since you could have wrote this, please explain just WTF the above means.

and then, maybe, you could start answering the direct questions i've been presenting to you for the past 2 months.

and that post was dripping with contempt and hate and rationalization of said contempt and hate.

gays are treated as second class citizens in all but two states.

so smile today and pat yourself on the back because, hey, you might not have much, but you're not a faggot!

and keep reminding everyone of that fact.

at least i ain't a faggot!

 

[martha]

I will bet you five crisp one-dollar bills that when some state finally does pass one of these things "allowing" the gayz to marry, some conservative SOB and his cronies will take it to court, fucking begging the judiciary to take control of the definition of marriage.