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Old 10-14-2008, 06:39 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by TheEdge U2JT View Post
For me, there's more to it than just this and it is not just an issues of religion or bias or whatever other BS that typically gets thrown out. I have chosen not to get in to my questions and thought process on the conservative side because 1. its too much to try to type and express in a post without it being unclear or misunderstood. 2. I'm not in the mood to have my views and the process I am using to decide what I want to do called venomous or biased or the like. As I said before, I respect everyones opinion even if it does not agree with mine. It's a shame that that there are some on here that are unable to do likewise. Seems more that a little ironic that you are fighting for gay rights and want conservatives, to respect their rights and opinions even if they don't agree with them but you cannot do the same for the conservative rights and opinions that you do not agree with. The word hypocritical comes to mind.
You got me on one thing -- I cheerfully admit that I do not respect opinions I find vile or asinine. I don't respect such opinions at all -- never have and never will. I do respect the right of all people to hold whatever opinions they wish to hold, no matter how mean spirited or idiotic those opinions are.

However, the respect I was talking about in my other post was a more basic respect -- the respect each and every person gets merely for being human. That respect means that everyone gets the same treatment in very basic areas -- that is, everyone gets access to food, shelter, health care, basic security, companionship, etc. To deny gays and lesbians the opportunity to marry (ie, have companionship the same way as straights) is to consider them second class citizens and shows a lack of respect no platitudes can ever compensate for.
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Old 10-15-2008, 08:46 AM   #362
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hence, why conservatives never really want to discuss the revocation of the DC handgun ban.

no one in DC wants handguns to be legal. there's far and away enough murder in this town. but some guy sued, and guess what, the SCOTUS affirmed the fact that, yes, there is a right to buy and own a firearm in DC.

but i guess Republicans prefer murder to marriage?
(sorry about delay in response but a heavy work schedule and a post-season engine teardown has keep me busy and will continue to into next week)

If you can find a "right to privacy" or "same-sex marriage" in the U.S. Constitution but not the "right of the People to keep and bear arms"...
...youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu might be a liberal.

Irvine, you hint that I object only to judicial activism that I personally disagree with. Well, I hint that maybe you lack understanding of the difference between a "discovered right" and a "restored right."

D.C. residents once enjoyed the right to own handguns -- a right most Americans outside of Washington D.C. enjoy actually. And unlike the "discovered right" of abortion or gay marriage, gun ownership is an enumerated right.
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A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Precedent that it is an individual and not a collective right goes back as far as 1822's Bliss v Commonwealth of Ky.

D.C. v Heller only reestablished that:

a) The Second Amendment protects an individual right to posses a firearm for traditionally lawful purposes.

b) The Second Amendment right is not unlimited. Laws imposing conditions on sales, barring possession by felons, the mentally ill or in sensitive places are not affected by the ruling.

c) A total ban on handgun possession prohibits the type of arms that Americans overwhelmingly prefer for self-defense and protection. The right to self-defense is a natural (universal) right and the right to keep firearms an enumerated right. Thus the D.C. ban was both unnatural and unconstitutional and the right of it's residents to do such IS NOW RESTORED.

Nice try.
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Old 10-15-2008, 09:03 AM   #363
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If you can find a "right to privacy" .... in the U.S. Constitution
I can find a right to privacy in the California Constitution.


Now, what about the rest of the posts you're not addressing?
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Old 10-15-2008, 09:35 AM   #364
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I know you've never complained about the legislative branch making laws. My point is that INDY would like to frame your argument that way. My point is that INDY claims to be against so-called judicial activism but I think that he's only opposed to it when certain issues are at stake. I'm arguing that his belief that homosexuality is wrong is REALLY what's undergirding his opposition to the courts striking down these laws.

But maybe I should just let him speak for himself . . .
Well, I appreciate your attempt at explaining my position in my absence but I'm afraid you got it wrong. See above post about the difference between making up rights and restoring rights. I've gone into this before and I can't write all I'd like to at this time but I think this is important. Read my earlier posts but I'll clarify here as well.

I am being consistent. Brown v Board of Education was NOT judicial activism but also was only restoring rights promised and then taken away. The judicial activism of the U.S. Supreme Court was in 1883, 71 YEARS EARLIER, when the court began to strike down the foundations of post-Civil War Reconstruction. First declaring the Civil Rights Act of 1875 unconstitutional. Second, Plessy v Ferguson 1896. FYMers, how many of you realize this is where the term "separate but equal" that gets thrown around here all the time comes from? And like "a right to privacy," "separate but equal" is not in the Fourteenth Amendment but became law only through (drum roll please) judicial activism. And oh how we paid for it because from this ruling sprang the Jim Crow laws in the South and systemic segregation and discrimination.

1954's Brown v Board of Education was the beginning of a process to RESTORE RIGHTS that picked up steam as the Executive Branch, under the Attorney General and Justice Dept, went after racial segregationalists and the KKK and the Legislative Branch which passed the Civil Rights Acts of 1964 and 1968.

Again, I'm being consistent.
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Old 10-15-2008, 09:48 AM   #365
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I can find a right to privacy in the California Constitution.


Now, what about the rest of the posts you're not addressing?
I'm still waiting for YOUR definition of marriage. The one that doesn't exclude loving people, cast prejudice or impose the tyranny of the majority on a minority.
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Old 10-15-2008, 10:26 AM   #366
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Nice try.


there is that whole "equal protection" thingy, but it's clear that you're picking and choosing which "judicial activism" you like, and that which you don't.
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Old 10-15-2008, 10:27 AM   #367
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I'm still waiting for YOUR definition of marriage. The one that doesn't exclude loving people, cast prejudice or impose the tyranny of the majority on a minority.


why did you get married INDY?

(assuming you are ... i think you've said you are)

why?
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:25 PM   #368
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:42 PM   #369
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i still want to know why people want to get married.
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:52 PM   #370
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Of course, you left out the equal protection clause of all these constitutions. Or are you the one who gets to choose who that applies to?
You are amusing.

Are you the one that gets to decide who the right to life applies to?
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Old 10-16-2008, 11:49 PM   #371
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Well, I appreciate your attempt at explaining my position in my absence but I'm afraid you got it wrong. See above post about the difference between making up rights and restoring rights. I've gone into this before and I can't write all I'd like to at this time but I think this is important. Read my earlier posts but I'll clarify here as well.

I am being consistent. Brown v Board of Education was NOT judicial activism but also was only restoring rights promised and then taken away. The judicial activism of the U.S. Supreme Court was in 1883, 71 YEARS EARLIER, when the court began to strike down the foundations of post-Civil War Reconstruction. First declaring the Civil Rights Act of 1875 unconstitutional. Second, Plessy v Ferguson 1896. FYMers, how many of you realize this is where the term "separate but equal" that gets thrown around here all the time comes from? And like "a right to privacy," "separate but equal" is not in the Fourteenth Amendment but became law only through (drum roll please) judicial activism. And oh how we paid for it because from this ruling sprang the Jim Crow laws in the South and systemic segregation and discrimination.

1954's Brown v Board of Education was the beginning of a process to RESTORE RIGHTS that picked up steam as the Executive Branch, under the Attorney General and Justice Dept, went after racial segregationalists and the KKK and the Legislative Branch which passed the Civil Rights Acts of 1964 and 1968.

Again, I'm being consistent.

Fair enough. I know it's poor form to presume to speak for some one else. There was no offense intended, and I hope none was taken.

I'd to probe your argument a little bit though. Would it be fair to say then that if the 14th Amendment hadn't been passed (which it might not have if the Southern states hadn't been represented by those sympathetic to Reconstruction) you would then oppose the actions of the Supreme Court during the Civil Rights era because the rights would be discovered and rather then restored?

And how would you argue that the rights of blacks and whites to go to school together or to eat in the same restaurant or to marry each other are protected by the 14th Amendment but the rights of gays to marry are not?
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Old 10-17-2008, 12:50 AM   #372
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it seems like "judicial activism" is thrown only at rulings that we don't seem to like very much.
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Old 10-17-2008, 10:44 AM   #373
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I wasted five minutes of my life reading about Joe the Moron Plumber this morning. Turns out he's a single parent. I thought children had a "right" to a dad AND a mom. (At least that's what the SoCAl Chinese Christian Association's Flyer said yesterday.)

Won't somebody think of his child?
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:07 AM   #374
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I wasted five minutes of my life reading about Joe the Moron Plumber this morning. Turns out he's a single parent. I thought children had a "right" to a dad AND a mom. (At least that's what the SoCAl Chinese Christian Association's Flyer said yesterday.)

Won't somebody think of his child?



his children will spend their lives aching for the special gift that only a mother brings, and for the magical alchemy that two heterosex parents create that will save them from a life of crime, drugs, and low self-esteem.

if we don't codify the ideal, and make illegal anything that differs from it, then society is as doomed as Joe the Plumber's kids.
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Old 10-17-2008, 12:45 PM   #375
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I read something yesterday that made so much sense to me. "Marriage isn't about finding the right person, it's about being the right person".

Aspiring to that isn't a heterosexual only trait, or privilege, or right
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